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-   -   Jewish wedding traditions adopted by non-Jewish couple (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=123371)

NinjaPoodle 11-30-2011 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2109229)
I'm not opposed to stealing traditions if you feel they can have meaning for you. Doing it because they look pretty and will impress your friends, though...well, that's a bit tackier.

So, like, "We want a chuppah because we love the symbolism of our friends and family supporting us in our marriage" is cool. "We want a chuppah because it's a cool decoration" is not cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mevara (Post 2109234)
As the article states

I think as long as you do it out of respect and good taste it is okay.

Ditto

MysticCat 11-30-2011 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ellebud (Post 2109346)
But it is wonderful to understand and respect the traditions of others.

Absolutely.

ForeverRoses 11-30-2011 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixAzul (Post 2109309)
Hah, shortly after my husband and I got married (full mass), we went to the wedding of a mutual friend that was 5 minutes long. That was it. Ever since we had our wedding I've been somewhat mortified that ours was so long.

We had a full Catholic Mass as well, and I have always said it was because I wanted my wedding to take longer than my divorce proceedings.

My best friend had a 5 minute wedding. She was so nervous and never really had time to calm down. She finally calmed down about 10 minutes after it ended. So she completed zoned out for her entire ceremony. At least I had plenty of time to calm down!

Low C Sharp 11-30-2011 11:37 AM

Quote:

Jewish families having a Christmas tree for the decor.....not so much.
A Jew or atheist having a Christmas tree is different from appropriating a religious ritual. There is no Christian tradition that mandates a Christmas tree. Heck, if there's a Christian tradition that even recommends a Christmas tree, I'd like to learn about it. Decorating one's house with fir boughs, candles, etc., as well as giving gifts and having a feast, was a pagan practice that long predates Christianity. A Christmas tree's historical, and to a large extent its modern, purpose is to be pretty and bring some light and warmth into the house during the winter solstice. It's different even from displaying a creche, with its explicit Christian meaning, and miles away from, say, holding a "mass" in your living room because you like the text and you think the wafers are cool (which would be disrespectful and offensive).

We generally don't find it weird for non-pagans to celebrate Halloween, or for non-Puritans to honor the first Thanksgiving, because those practices carry so much secular, cultural meaning. It doesn't bother me if people want to move huppas or smashing a glass into that space. I have a bigger problem with churches deciding to host "Seders" without Jewish leadership. That is appropriation, and making a parody of something others hold sacred. I'm not a fan of the trend of using Jews and their rituals as mascots to validate a false "Judeo-Christian" presentation. Christians who genuinely respect Jews and our traditions don't keep a Jewish Stepin Fetchit around to make a political point about how much they love Jews.

Psi U MC Vito 11-30-2011 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp (Post 2109431)
I have a bigger problem with churches deciding to host "Seders" without Jewish leadership. That is appropriation, and making a parody of something others hold sacred. I'm not a fan of the trend of using Jews and their rituals as mascots to validate a false "Judeo-Christian" presentation. Christians who genuinely respect Jews and our traditions don't keep a Jewish Stepin Fetchit around to make a political point about how much they love Jews.

I don't know about this. I don't personally see an issue with Christians celebrating Passover, though I would expect some additions to the traditional sedar to reflect our beliefs.

Low C Sharp 11-30-2011 01:18 PM

The problem isn't celebrating it. The issue is holding their own "Seders" without Jewish leadership (or even input). Would you see an issue with a bunch of Jews holding a "Mass" without bringing in any Catholics? If you want to experience Passover, countless Jewish organizations and families would welcome you as a guest.

BraveMaroon 11-30-2011 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp (Post 2109431)

A Jew or atheist having a Christmas tree is different from appropriating a religious ritual. There is no Christian tradition that mandates a Christmas tree. Heck, if there's a Christian tradition that even recommends a Christmas tree, I'd like to learn about it. Decorating one's house with fir boughs, candles, etc., as well as giving gifts and having a feast, was a pagan practice that long predates Christianity. A Christmas tree's historical, and to a large extent its modern, purpose is to be pretty and bring some light and warmth into the house during the winter solstice. It's different even from displaying a creche, with its explicit Christian meaning, and miles away from, say, holding a "mass" in your living room because you like the text and you think the wafers are cool (which would be disrespectful and offensive).

This. A million times this.

Psi U MC Vito 11-30-2011 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp (Post 2109439)
The problem isn't celebrating it. The issue is holding their own "Seders" without Jewish leadership (or even input). Would you see an issue with a bunch of Jews holding a "Mass" without bringing in any Catholics? If you want to experience Passover, countless Jewish organizations and families would welcome you as a guest.

I would have an issue with non-Christians holding the Eucharist, because it wouldn't have meaning to them. However Christians hold the Tanakh to be scripture, so some, but not all by any stretch, might celebrate Passover because of the command in Exodus. Since they won't have Rabbinical tradition to draw on, it would probably take a different form. Especially since we associate the Last Supper with Passover.

MysticCat 11-30-2011 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito (Post 2109435)
I don't know about this. I don't personally see an issue with Christians celebrating Passover, though I would expect some additions to the traditional sedar to reflect our beliefs.

Now Vito, you know I've got to give you a bit of a hard time about this. :D Christians do celebrate Passover in their own way -- we call it the Eucharist.
Alleluia! Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.
Therefore let us keep the feast. Alleluia!
Or we call it Easter, if you're talking about the day instead of a rite. I think that in most European languages other than English and German, the name of that day is derived from Pesakh (Passover).

What I took Low C Sharp to be talking about is the Christianized Seders I see sometimes, where everything in the meal is re-interpreted/misinterpreted/understood (depending on perspective) to give Christian meaning to all aspects of the seder. These kinds of things make me very uncomfortable. Part of the reason it makes me uncomfortable is the fear that it will offend others. Part of the reason it makes me uncomfortable is that it indicates to me that we don't understand our own tradition well enough to see that the Eucharist is our Passover meal.

On the other hand, I do think participation in a seder can be a valuable, educational and very meaningful experience for Christians; we all too often forget our Jewish roots (and forget that Jesus was Jewish) and neglect, as result, to consider the implications of that for us. Our congregation has had seders for this purpose a few times in the past, and we've asked people from a near-by synagogue to join us for it, help us plan it and lead us in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito (Post 2109452)
However Christians hold the Tanakh to be scripture, so some, but not all by any stretch, might celebrate Passover because of the command in Exodus.

There are indeed some (small, non-mainstream) Christian groups that consider the command in Exodus binding on Christians.

ellebud 11-30-2011 02:18 PM

A seder is the retelling the story of the book of Exodus. Yes, there are distinctly Jewish elements (the Four Sons). But there is a worldwide and cross cultural implications: It is the story of freedom, the yearning for freedom and historical in that it discribes the growth of a group from paganism (worshipping the golden calf) to the understanding of one God.

It is considered a mitzvah (good deed) to invite anyone of any faith and background to a seder.

We went to a Catholic/Jewish wedding recently. It was held in a church with the Archbishop and a Rabbi officiating. (Yes, this had to be a very liberal church.) There was incense which I understand is rarely done. The Archbishop invited everyone up to take communion. A bit of an awkward moment. But it was very inclusive and that was nice.

Psi U MC Vito 11-30-2011 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 2109456)
Now Vito, you know I've got to give you a bit of a hard time about this. :D Christians do celebrate Passover in their own way -- we call it the Eucharist.
Alleluia! Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.
Therefore let us keep the feast. Alleluia!
Or we call it Easter, if you're talking about the day instead of a rite. I think that in most European languages other than English and German, the name of that day is derived from Pesakh (Passover).

What I took Low C Sharp to be talking about is the Christianized Seders I see sometimes, where everything in the meal is re-interpreted/misinterpreted/understood (depending on perspective) to give Christian meaning to all aspects of the seder. These kinds of things make me very uncomfortable. Part of the reason it makes me uncomfortable is the fear that it will offend others. Part of the reason it makes me uncomfortable is that it indicates to me that we don't understand our own tradition well enough to see that the Eucharist is our Passover meal.

On the other hand, I do think participation in a seder can be a valuable, educational and very meaningful experience for Christians; we all too often forget our Jewish roots (and forget that Jesus was Jewish) and neglect, as result, to consider the implications of that for us. Our congregation has had seders for this purpose a few times in the past, and we've asked people from a near-by synagogue to join us for it, help us plan it and lead us in it.

There are indeed some (small, non-mainstream) Christian groups that consider the command in Exodus binding on Christians.

Good point. Especially true since the Great Thanksgiving among other things usually mentions the Exodus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ellebud (Post 2109457)
We went to a Catholic/Jewish wedding recently. It was held in a church with the Archbishop and a Rabbi officiating. (Yes, this had to be a very liberal church.) There was incense which I understand is rarely done. The Archbishop invited everyone up to take communion. A bit of an awkward moment. But it was very inclusive and that was nice.

Actually incense is very traditional. It's why some low church Anglicans refer to both our own High Church services and Roman services disparaging as "smells and bells." The fact that the Archbishop not only celebrated with a Rabbi, but invited all to communion? It probably would have caused a few coronaries in Rome if they found out.

amIblue? 11-30-2011 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito (Post 2109461)
Good point. Especially true since the Great Thanksgiving among other things usually mentions the Exodus.


Actually incense is very traditional. It's why some low church Anglicans refer to both our own High Church services and Roman services disparaging as "smells and bells." The fact that the Archbishop not only celebrated with a Rabbi, but invited all to communion? It probably would have caused a few coronaries in Rome if they found out.

Regarding the inviting all to communion bit: how is the officiant to know who is allowed communion and who is not? It's not like people have big neon signs over their heads that announce their faith. When I've been at weddings where communion has been served, they invite all, but people who are another faith or nonbelievers generally abstain.

Psi U MC Vito 11-30-2011 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amIblue? (Post 2109465)
Regarding the inviting all to communion bit: how is the officiant to know who is allowed communion and who is not? It's not like people have big neon signs over their heads that announce their faith. When I've been at weddings where communion has been served, they invite all, but people who are another faith or nonbelievers generally abstain.

It's one thing to commune all who ask for the Sacrament, it's quite another to invite all, especially when the official position is against it.

Munchkin03 11-30-2011 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 2109275)
I've seen brides on wedding blogs who had henna or wore saris on their wedding day because they wanted to be "quirky and different." True story.

I'm all about your wedding day being a reflection of the couple, but different for the sake of being different is really dumb.

Ex: totally not culturally specific, but the whole stupid mustache thing (google mustaches and weddings if you should be so lucky as to not know any hipsters who were really into this). Quirky for the sake of quirky. And dumb.

People rock the mustaches at weddings? That is effing lame. I've seen it in engagement photos and just parties in general. Someone should tell those wannabe hipsters that isht was over in 2009.

I don't know why people are so afraid of traditional weddings. Obviously people can do whatever they want, but at that point, it seems like it's less what people really want, and it's more of what will seem "quirky" or "different.

The wedding I went to last weekend (a Jewish wedding that consisted of two Jewish people!!!) was very traditional in religious, cultural (reflecting their backgrounds) and wedding terms. It was "different" because it was traditional, LOL.

KSUViolet06 11-30-2011 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchkin03 (Post 2109472)
People rock the mustaches at weddings? That is effing lame. I've seen it in engagement photos and just parties in general. Someone should tell those wannabe hipsters that isht was over in 2009.

Yes. I just saw a mustache cake topper + mustache props for the photo booth. Lamesauce.

They are in AL though and trends tend to move slowly down there. I live in a hipster-y kind of area so we've been over the mustache thing since as long as you have. lol.


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