Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2034539)

Yeah, but to jump from the knowledge that many orgs have Christian basis to "I think that a lot of rituals are outdated, in that they are too religious for the increasing diversity of their orgs" implies that you know what specifically is contained in other org's rituals. Being based on religion and being two religious are too very different things.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2034586)

The problem with addressing any group other than your own is that you don't know if AChiO and Tri Delta have any specifically religious undertones in their rituals. They may include the ideals of their creeds very well in their rituals. Don't speak for them.

Having a Christian basis for ritual doesn't have to be a factor to exclude people. The level of biblical involvement may vary widely. I've actually read several rituals. They are quite beautiful, and so far, I haven't come across a single one that includes a significant amount of biblical content. They may have Christian values, but there are values that many non Christian people hold in common with Christians that you find in the Christian tradition.

If there is a ritual out there that demands you recognize Jesus as your savior or requires you to take communion, etc, then I would have a problem. And if you are wondering, I would count myself as extremely non-religious.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2034597)

I don't understand how you talk about having read several rituals, and then tell me that there is no way I could know what is in someone else's ritual.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2034575)

What I am saying is that many of the (NPC) orgs have open mottos/creeds/whatevers that reflect their core beliefs. For example, Phi Mu: love, honor, truth. Alpha Chi Omega: love, unselfishness, sincerity. Delta Delta Delta: truth, self-sacrifice, friendship. I think that these core values are very important, and our members should strive to live by them. They are, in my opinion, more important than some specific words in a book.

It's harder to answer the second part of your question. I am not against participating in a ritual based on Christian scripture, as I think that there is value in the historical significance of continuing a tradition set down by our founders. However, even many of the open mottos reference God in a way that I personally find to be exclusive.

So basically, what I'm trying to say, is that I think values are important, and I think historical continuity is important, but the religious aspect makes me uncomfortable, and I think that a week set aside to "reflect on ritual" risks elevating the latter.

Originally Posted by Gusteau (Post 2034609)

I get what your saying, I just don't think discomfort equals outdated.

Basically, one of the most important realizations for fraternity and sorority members is the acknowledgment that their organization is larger than themselves. Part of both the humility and pride of being part of such a vast and meaningful organization is sacrificing a little bit of yourself for the common good. If you can't make sacrifices for those you care about you (the general you) are just not fit for fraternity/sorority life. One member's occasional discomfort is not more important that the organization as a whole.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2034597)

I don't understand how you talk about having read several rituals, and then tell me that there is no way I could know what is in someone else's ritual.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2034599)

Well, you never claimed to have read any so...

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2034599)

Well, you never claimed to have read any so...

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2034616)

Truedat.

And even if she had, reading other orgs' rituals doesn't mean one should speak on other orgs' rituals in such general conversation. Both DeltaBetaBaby and AOII Angel need to be careful as to not seem as though they are particularly well-informed or authorities on rituals other than their own.

Plenty of people have access to GLOs' rituals and don't read them or read them but you would never know because they don't discuss them, even vaguely. I can access rituals for other NPHC orgs but even reading them doesn't mean much beyond the words on the paper. Since there are nonChristian NPHCers, as well as Christian NPHCers who have denounced because they feel that Greekdom is the antiChrist, there is something to be said for what's embedded in "ritual" and beyond the words. I don't know about other GLOs but Delta is to be taken as a whole and not picked a part because someone has read some document (which isn't "secret" because secrets aren't put in print and distributed in paper form).

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2034616)

Truedat.

And even if she had, reading other orgs' rituals doesn't mean one should speak on other orgs' rituals in such general conversation. Both DeltaBetaBaby and AOII Angel need to be careful as to not seem as though they are particularly well-informed or authorities on rituals other than their own.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2034611)

From a minority person's standpoint, that discomfort is just one more in a long list of discomforts that they're expected to 'deal with' throughout their everyday lives. Newspapers assume the 'standard' person is white and only identify someone by race if the person is non-white. Co-workers assume that everyone's Christian and say a very specifically Christian prayer before a holiday meal. It gets wearing on a person when it's always "them" who is expected to be humble for the whole.

I really don't disagree that ultimately it's worth it for some people, but I don't think it's an issue that can be swept away as humility vs. pride. And I think that her opinions on whether or not ritual is outdated is not because of discomfort but because of the same thing that causes the discomfort, if I'm reading her right. In her description they're both symptoms of the same problem, not one caused by the other.

Again, the inability to talk in specifics makes this a pretty pointless discussion and only enhances my opinion that any sort of concerted effort among GLOs to 'recognize ritual' is fruitless. We should support our ritual - or work from within to change it if we so desire - but we can't really talk about things otherwise.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2034622)

You are right, I over-stepped in my original post. That said, I consider it common knowledge that the ritual of most NPC orgs is based in Christian scripture. In fact, the ones that aren't generally go out of their way to promote that about themselves.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2034622)

My main point, however, is that we should celebrate the values of our orgs (and perhaps the common values across orgs) above celebrating a specific block of text or handshake or sequinned leggings or anything else.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2034622)

I'm just not feeling National Ritual Week.

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2034616)

Plenty of people have access to GLOs' rituals and don't read them or read them but you would never know because they don't discuss them, even vaguely. I can access rituals for other NPHC orgs but even reading them doesn't mean much beyond the words on the paper. Since there are nonChristian NPHCers, as well as Christian NPHCers who have denounced because they feel that Greekdom is the antiChrist, there is something to be said for what's embedded in "ritual" and beyond the words. I don't know about other GLOs but Delta is to be taken as a whole and not picked a part because someone has read some document (which isn't "secret" because secrets aren't put in print and distributed in paper form).

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2034622)

sequinned leggings

Originally Posted by Gusteau (Post 2034623)

Understanding the limitations of this topic, I would argue that most GLOs try to be accommodating to this discomfort by generally focusing more on the values based sentiment of Ritual in membership education, resources, publications, etc. As long as we emphasize the values inherent in our rituals we should be able to move on from things that are maybe less inclusive.

It's probably worth saying that I feel my Ritual is very inclusive (a valid argument could be made to call it secular, though I would call it interfaith) so I may not fully understand the breadth of these feelings.

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2034628)

"Common knowledge" among those who are familiar with that aspect of NPC orgs. It wasn't common knowledge to me until I read your post. :)

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2034634)

It's been discussed on GC before in the vaguest of vague terms. If you put a lot of the posts together you can see a pattern.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2034634)

Probably to some extent, but not necessarily universally.