Re: Apples and oranges
 

We're not talking about the organizations or military we're talking about hazing. We should compare them. Those who have the power of arms should be examined most closely in a democratic society.

Re: Re: Apples and oranges
 

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you :) I am speaking of hazing within the military, and not necessarily military academies. (after all you go to school to learn and get an education). I think that the military has to seek out ways to establish a relationship between the soldiers (whether it be through hazing or otherwise). After all these are SOLDIERS....who will probably go on to fight wars, protect oneanother in foreign lands, function under stressful adn deadly circumstances, etc. Granted, I do not think that anyone should be hazed almost until the point of death, but what I am saying is that I can see the reason to use a form of hazing in the military......within a GLO, no I can't. Pledging (such as scavenger hunts and things of that nature) used in GLO is a different story altogether.

What it all boils down to is Risk Management!!:o

Do any of you wonder where in the hell your money goes to your Nationals?:confused:

Many times a signicant % goes to Rish Management, Insurance to pay for DUMB ASS things that Chapters do! This covers Law Suits that is seems more and more are finding out that they cannot do these things!

Think how much you National Dues would decrease if it was not for Insurance! :confused:

Many Nationals are also Like any other Business losing money and are in The Money Throughs as each and every Chapter is along with us as individuals!

Hell, I own a business, but if I had to pay for attention, I would be in trouble! You pay everything else be for you pay your self!:(

No, I believe that some forms of "hazing" actually bring pledges closer together. I'm not talking about drinking three kegs of beer or being starved for five days.

Bridget3 D, what is your definition of hazing? :confused:

Anytime some one is harmed whether in the Militaty or GreekDom, or life in General, IT IS WRONG!

There are Laws about this and Prison time can come from it! Dah Does that help answer your question?

I don't agree with hazing in the way that most people define it (you know, physically dangerous activities or things that might give people a complex a mile wide), but I think the hazing paranoia is out of control. I wouldn't mind being led blindfolded to a bonfire...what harm is there in that? (Except for the fact that I'm afraid of the dark.) The semester I pledged, we had a scavenger hunt to find out who our bigs were, and they left notes for us to find all over campus that led us to the middle of the quad where all our bigs were waiting with gifts. I had a blast doing it, but we had to stop it this year because it's considered "hazing." Now, in my opinion, that's a little ridiculous. It seems that nowadays everything is construed as hazing! During my dad's pledging days, he and his pledge brothers were blindfolded and driven 30 miles from their university by the actives and dropped off...to find their way back on foot. And that's the most innocent thing they did. Now THAT is hazing, you all. Scavenger hunts, bonfires, etc. are not hazing, in my book. So to answer your question, no, not all hazing is bad, if we define hazing by these new overly-sensitive rules.

Tom: All I have to say is DITTO!

Hazing is hazing and it is wrong. If anyone needs a definition and/or examples I can send you many! I was PH VP and have tons of paper on the subject!

Blindfolding and leading pledges into the woods is hazing. If it is something that your sorority doesn't let your parents, college, or headquarters know, then it is probably hazing. Do you tell the women going through rush that they will experience this if they pledge? If the pledge refuses to be blindfolded or participate, will there be consequences.
My friend pledged a sorority (not mine) for one week. They woke her up at dawn on Saturday and led all the pledges to the gym where the sisters started screaming at the pledges. She started to walk away. They tried to stop her by telling her that everyone in the sorority went through this. She said that she wasn't that desperate for friends. Unfortunately, most pledges aren't that self-confident.

3D:

P.S. Check out your organization's web site and NPC. There is not a fine line between hazing and hazing. Just b/c something isn't typical animal house doesn't mean it isn't hazing.

If you feel the need to hold events that you cannot share with your national officers/national magazine/panhellenic office then you should not be invovled in that activity.

There is no discussion, go ask your risk managment chair or PH advisor, I promise they would have tons to say regarding this subject.

If your chapter must haze to teach new members then your new member program needs to be examined.

Ok We need to seperate the legal definition of hazing, from the administrative definition, and the visceral or emotional reaction.

Legally a great many of the activities fall under a broad based legal definition of hazing. I am sure someone could cut and paste a statute.

The law is not completely blind though and there are issues of harm, risk and a test based on what a reasonable person might do under reasonable circumstances.

So if you have a benign scavenger hunt no one gets hurt and there is no built in risk to people participating nothing is likely to come up of it. Legally. And by built in Risk I am talking about Scavenger hunts that involve stealing or maybe getting autographs from hookers or somehing else that incurrs a risk.

Administratively (National GLO), just from being on this site and some personal experiences, I would say that the larger National sororities are stricter in terms of hazing definitions and more likely to come down hard on a chapter very quickly. Even for things that a National Fraternity might not blink an eye out. So beware.

Administratively (College) will also have another set of rules, but are primarily reactive, and won't be as likely to do something unless someone really complains. Then the reaction will usually be based on the climate of the Greek system, the severity of the incident, and the just who the Greek advisor is.

another Caveat is that sometimes laws and rules are passed and then used to make it easier to build a case. So lets say you do a buch of activities that don't "seem" like hazing emotionally, but fit the legal list, and then someone gets hurt during something like a scavenger hunt.

Now the police or whoever can go back and review all your past activities to build a case against you, you required memorization, the scavenger hunt, they wore your pin, new member t-shirts etc. And at this point even if these things were hypothetically voluntary, because someone was hurt they are going to be considered hazing activities due to implied peer pressure to ensure compliance.

Interestingly, you would have to have a certain percentage of the pledge class always opt out of something without consequences in order to lessen your liability.

Sorry to go on endlesly, but it seems a lot of people disagreeing but are coming from different legitimate viewpoints.

Some of the trust activities can be considered hazing but do build positive bonds . . I like rope courses myself.

So the real issue is just to cover yourself and prevent legal liability, University problems, or your National coming down on you while recognizing that all three have different persepctives, and still trying to create a solid bond between the pledges and the chapter.. . Good luck.

I'm with Bridget3D on this one...

I'm sorry but this is such a lost battle. There is no way in hell that all groups will come together and figure of one clear-cut definition of "hazing." I think that all of this anti-hazing crap has gotten way out of control. I am against your stereotypical definition of "hazing." Abuse in any way, shape, or form should not be tolerated whatsoever. But when it comes down to telling someone that they can't hold a scavenger hunt (not stealing or obtaining anything illegal) or conduct interviews to get to know members that is just bonkers to me. God forbid that that the pledges get to know the members and vice versa before initiation. Why would you want to join an organization if you didn't know the members very well before you got initiated. If you don't take the time as a pledge to get to know your future sisters you could come to find out later that you are in the wrong place!

All I can say is that if you are dumb enough to be "hazed" in the bad form then you deserve it. If someone would have tried to make me do something that I didn't want to do then I would have got up and walked out.

I wish my chapter would have made me work a little bit harder for my letters. When you work a little bit harder for something it means more to you.

Have a nice day :)

James, that was a really good explanation!

Interviews aren't necessarily hazing unless 1) the new members have certain timelines on completing them, 2) they are mandatory and 3) the sisters/brothers are also required to do interviews of the new members. But to be honest, I just think there are better ways of getting to know people without the interview. I did the interviews as a new member, and I still have my interview book, and it was fun. Unfortunately, when the interview book coincides with memorizing information about someone instead of just learning about them through discussion, it becomes hazing.

As for the scavenger hunt, there is the inherent risk of say, getting hit by a car if you're out at night on the streets. Now, I know the response is, well be careful and such. But, if you're on a time limit and have to find 50 things in an hour, you're not thinking about looking both ways before crossing streets and what not. You're thinking that you have the challenge of getting these 50 things in an hour, and you only have 20 with 20 minutes to go.

Talk as much as you'd like about what's hazing and what isn't, but the fact of the matter remains that as long as horrid hazing incidents continue to occur, the activities you utilize with your new members will be under the same stringent scrutiny.

*stepping off soapbox*

Does your International Headquarters know about this? How about the University or College Administration? If they were to find out, there would be problems for your chapter which would probably lead to some type of disciplinary measures if you are lucky and they don't yank your charter.
It is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt. I know of what I write because when I was pledging and we did something similar, I was the one injured. Of course it was accidental and never happened before, but there is always a first and unfortunately it was me. It was the wake up call that my chapter needed and we changed to a positive pledge program. Let me emphasize that no one expected me or anyone else to wind up injured and in an emergency room, but it happened to me.