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-   -   Teacher fired for premarital sex? (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=114260)

DrPhil 06-14-2010 01:10 PM

Christianity has different denominations partially because of different interpretations and approaches to Christianity. Therefore, this isn't about discussing Christianity and WWJD but instead about what it means to sign a contract (that I assume people read before they sign) for a private (insert any religion) school.

Alumiyum 06-14-2010 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 1942776)
It could fall under sexual harassment, but I'm not sure how that works if she didn't object to the question, but just the reaction to her answer to the question.

I agree that it's sexist in practice, however I suspect if this woman's husband had been a teacher as well he would have been fired. I don't know that, and I don't know if they're as "vigilant" about Joe Teacher talking about his pregnant wife who's having a six month pregnancy instead of nine.

You can't discriminate on the status of being pregnant, that is, you can't choose not to hire someone just because they're pregnant, but the school's objecting to the actions, not the state of pregnancy.

As a religious organization they have a lot of leeway to hire/fire based on their beliefs. Hypothetically if they were in a state that prohibited discrimination based on orientation they might not be able to discriminate against a gay man, but they would almost certainly be able to avoid hiring a non-celibate gay man as that is about morals not status.



Which is why in its own twisted way it's almost refreshing that this was treated as the equivalent to a one-night stand.

The issue is that the teacher is supposed to be a moral example at this school. So even though perhaps the "Christian" thing to do would be to help (generic) her choose not to have an abortion, get married, repent, whatever... this school sees her as having a large enough flaw that she shouldn't be an example to students.

Sometimes I hate understanding the point of view, but there it is.

I guess IMO the better example would be to show their students what it means to care for others and forgive by being compassionate towards her. But that's the Christianity I was raised in. Every religion has different shades.

Drolefille 06-14-2010 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alumiyum (Post 1942779)
I guess IMO the better example would be to show their students what it means to care for others and forgive by being compassionate towards her. But that's the Christianity I was raised in. Every religion has different shades.

That would mean talking about sex with children and we can't have that ;)

But in the end, as has been pointed out several times, she apparently signed a contract and agreed to it. Her failure to do so, even if the contract was ridiculous, means the firing was probably legit.

Munchkin03 06-14-2010 01:24 PM

About 15 years ago, this happened to a woman in my hometown. She left town, married, had children, and then divorced. She came home to help her ailing mother, but before she left, she got pregnant by a man that she was dating. They broke up before she found out she was pregnant and she wanted to keep the baby. The principal gave her an ultimatum--either get married or get fired.

I don't remember what happened, but it was all over the national news as well.

I find it funny that the school is asking her to drop the lawsuit because it would be the "Christian" thing to do.

Alumiyum 06-14-2010 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 1942781)
That would mean talking about sex with children and we can't have that ;)

But in the end, as has been pointed out several times, she apparently signed a contract and agreed to it. Her failure to do so, even if the contract was ridiculous, means the firing was probably legit.

If it did indeed specifically list premarital sex as a firing offense.

If I were her I'd be pretty riled up about the fact that her personal business was broadcast to the entire school. I know they'd have to come up with a reason to explain why a well-liked teacher was fired, but there HAS to be a more tactful way to do it.

DrPhil 06-14-2010 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchkin03 (Post 1942784)
I find it funny that the school is asking her to drop the lawsuit because it would be the "Christian" thing to do.

Now THAT is funny.

Drolefille 06-14-2010 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alumiyum (Post 1942785)
If it did indeed specifically list premarital sex as a firing offense.

If I were her I'd be pretty riled up about the fact that her personal business was broadcast to the entire school. I know they'd have to come up with a reason to explain why a well-liked teacher was fired, but there HAS to be a more tactful way to do it.

Yes, the details of a contract if it existed are crucial here.

And I agree, but the details of that are also iffy here.

Senusret I 06-14-2010 01:31 PM

Does the Bible admonish Christians to obey the laws of the land, or is that just the Quran?

Drolefille 06-14-2010 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senusret I (Post 1942788)
Does the Bible admonish Christians to obey the laws of the land, or is that just the Quran?

There's the whole render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's thing.

And Romans 13: 1-7 (NIV I believe)
Quote:

“Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”

AlphaFrog 06-14-2010 02:35 PM

As someone who attended an albeit liberal Christian school I think the school was in the right. They have rules and they were enforcing them. My school didn't allow teachers to marry someone who was divorced without an annulment. It made for a set of teachers who had been "dating" 20+ years while I was in school, but whatever.

nittanygirl 06-14-2010 02:52 PM

3 months before I would understand....
but 3 weeks? no one would have ever even known she conceived 3 weeks before her wedding had the man not asked her. Its unethical. I don't go around asking pregnant women when they conceived just when they are due. And out of curiosity.

indygphib 06-14-2010 02:53 PM

Hey, public schools pull this crap, too. The school where I had my first teaching job had a "morals clause" as a part of the contract, and did the school board looooooooove to point it out to the teachers.

Not only were we not supposed to do the nasty unless we were married, drinking was highly frowned upon as well. Example: A teacher and his wife went to a local tavern for dinner. He ordered a beer with his dinner and one of the school board members saw it and went off on him - IN THE RESTAURANT. Was the teacher trashed? Absolutely not - it was ONE BEER. But the school board member yelled at him for "being a bad example" for students. Um, this place was a 21+ establishment...and what was the board member doing there if the place was such a bad influence in the community?

I only lasted two years in that hellhole...

agzg 06-14-2010 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 1942776)
It could fall under sexual harassment, but I'm not sure how that works if she didn't object to the question, but just the reaction to her answer to the question.

It's still sexual harassment even if she didn't object at that moment to the question. Whether or not she chooses to report it is the kicker, and it seems she sailed right over sexual harassment to discrimination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 1942776)
I agree that it's sexist in practice, however I suspect if this woman's husband had been a teacher as well he would have been fired. I don't know that, and I don't know if they're as "vigilant" about Joe Teacher talking about his pregnant wife who's having a six month pregnancy instead of nine.

Well, it seems she was pretty discrete about the conception date, so, had she not asked for FMLA (which many times a man will not for a pregnancy) the question never would have been raised. Don't know that for a fact though - I mean, I'm sure people would start asking the due date once she started showing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 1942776)
You can't discriminate on the status of being pregnant, that is, you can't choose not to hire someone just because they're pregnant, but the school's objecting to the actions, not the state of pregnancy.

In my opinion, "getting pregnant" equals the status of being pregnant. I'm not a judge but the two are fairly indistinguishable in my mind. Had she not been pregnant (or had she had it terminated without telling anyone that she was pregnant), she would probably still have her job. The only other way one could be fired for premarital sex and have proof would be pictures/tape or documented talk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 1942776)
As a religious organization they have a lot of leeway to hire/fire based on their beliefs. Hypothetically if they were in a state that prohibited discrimination based on orientation they might not be able to discriminate against a gay man, but they would almost certainly be able to avoid hiring a non-celibate gay man as that is about morals not status.

In my constitutional knowledge (and I will admit, I don't have much), the first amendment protects people from the government, but does not place religion above the government. Federal law still should apply.

In my opinion, religious edicts do not supercede federal law but in cases of religious objection (for things like mandatory conscription, etc) and therefore religious organizations should not be able to hire/fire based on (legal) sexual practices but for specific positions (in my mind, only members of the cloth). Because this teacher was not a sister, what happens in her bedroom and her body is her business and no one elses. Furthermore, the school principal added insult to injury by telling the parents of the children in class/coworkers why she was fired. Her bedroom should not be on display to that many people unless she chooses to put it out there.

Alumiyum 06-14-2010 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indygphib (Post 1942829)
Hey, public schools pull this crap, too. The school where I had my first teaching job had a "morals clause" as a part of the contract, and did the school board looooooooove to point it out to the teachers.

Not only were we not supposed to do the nasty unless we were married, drinking was highly frowned upon as well. Example: A teacher and his wife went to a local tavern for dinner. He ordered a beer with his dinner and one of the school board members saw it and went off on him - IN THE RESTAURANT. Was the teacher trashed? Absolutely not - it was ONE BEER. But the school board member yelled at him for "being a bad example" for students. Um, this place was a 21+ establishment...and what was the board member doing there if the place was such a bad influence in the community?

I only lasted two years in that hellhole...

That's ridiculous...I don't think a teacher should be getting trashed in public but it is ridiculous to be like that about one beer. Damn. I don't think I would have lasted two years...

agzg 06-14-2010 03:11 PM

I wish MC, SCOGC Chief Justice would come in and school us about this.


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