Yes.

And women are setting bad examples and expectations when they expect/allow/request that men 'pay for everything.'

It's one of many gendered behaviors that perpetuate the gender structure even when done in moderation.

Yup...that's why I had to learn to change my habits while I was dating because the last thing I wanted to do was wake up the next day feeling like I wasted money on someone that didn't appreciate the effort....

No...not that :D

I learned that I had to find other constructive ways to have a quality date without setting the example like I had "deep pockets' or that I was going to be the one to pay for everything every time we went out.

It's nothing wrong with doing all in combinations while dating...we all work, we all have bills.

The whole purpose in going out on a date is to get to know someone.

lol
I just got back from seeing a movie, and there was a couple there that brought in Subway. I knew it was Subway because I could smell it when they walked right by where we were sitting. I saw this post earlier and I thought about GC so I just had to post it.

RE: Man always paying for the first date.
I have had more than one man tell me that he paid for dinner, therefore I owed him sex. I've told each that there are names for women who feel that way, and that if I was a hooker, he wouldn't be able to afford me.

I think it depends on the situation, and also one's dating history. I always want to pay for something, just so the above scenario doesn't happen yet again. I've also had male friends tell me that, if the woman doesn't at least offer to pay for the tip or whatever, they consider her a user.

A similar situation is men not knowing whether or not to open doors for a woman. They're always surprised to learn that a woman may want to have the car door opened for them (especially in the rain!), but have to find something to do other than look bored and privledged (sp?) while waiting for him to get to the woman's side.

Everyone has their own opinions on who pays or what works for them and their date and/or s/o. We all come from different backgrounds, have different views etc etc on the dating/relationship thing. I'm only speaking for myself. I was raised to pay. Period. I guess I'm just old fashioned. Paying, opening doors/car door, when eating out, pulling out the chair, helping her with her coat, etc.. kinda thing is all I've ever seen my dad do for my mom, so that's what I have been raised to do for her. But at the same time, I'm not going to break myself by taking her to fancy, expensive places to eat, at least not while we're in the dating stage. In an actual long-term monogamous relationship, then we help each other out by treating each other.

So, whatever works for you and your s/o when the economy is bad or good, then continue to do it.

To the first, that is something that I have heard about and was warned about by older women that I know, but I have never had a guy explicitly say that to me or even really intimate it. And honestly, he's lucky if he gets more than a warm handshake. :)

On the other hand, I have had guys that thought they would get sex just for calling me. Like, "Hey, how are you doing, want me to come over?" :neutral: These are probably the guys who would just know they were getting lucky if they went so far as to treat me to dinner. That's why with them there are no first dates.

To the second, I was talking to a friend of mine about this last night. He was saying that the guys he knows definitely look for a woman to reciprocate in some way as things progress (though not necessarily in the first few dates), because if she doesn't they start to think that maybe she is selfish/inconsiderate, and that makes sense to me too.

Were those guys around HERE??? (Here is Pittsburgh for those who don't know) If anything, I've found most of the guys around here that I dated even in the most casual of manners insist on paying for the first date and get borderline offended if I offer to pay for anything. I'm convinced that part of the reason this one guy I went out with didn't ask me out again is because I paid for the movie tickets - issue with parking and ticket sellout - I didn't do it to emasculate him, which it seems he felt I did.

:D Im a hypocrite now....LOL

But, if a man opens my door, I also always reach across and open his for him while he's walking back to his side. That's just thoughtfulness and consideration.

who knew etiquette and manners were bad examples?

This thread makes dating sound confusing! I was always raised that a man should pay. However, out of courtesy once we're officially dating then I always offer to chip in once in a while unless it is very clear that he is paying. The fews guys I have dated always wanted to pay if they could so I am used to it. It may be old-fashioned, but I like what I like. I like a true gentleman. But then again, I also don't need fine dining. I'd just as gladly split a salad and and ice cream at Chick-Fil-A or something.

Indeed, they were, but must not have been raised right. Of course, it could have been because I was so young and they thought I'd be naive enough to fall for it. Older men know better than to imply it.

Of course! But with the lavalier opener, it's already open, so I'm sure to give a big Thank You! and pat the seat.

Very sad, very true. Heartbreaking, really.

Daemon, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of program is it?

Yep. I do that too.:)

I don't think it matters who pays. You work that out before you go out on the date.

This isn't about etiquette and manners. This is about perpetuating gendered social norms.

If the topic was about people negotiating etiquette and manners based on personality type and choice, rather than gendered obligation, this wouldn't be an issue or even a topic of discussion. Instead the topic is "should men pay (open doors, etc.)."

Ever wonder what happens when women defy gender norms and want to pay for the first few dates, open doors for men (not just to reciprocate), etc? :) It often confuses things, often angers most men (you'll be surprised what men conclude about the women), and challenges traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. We don't have to think about this stuff and challenge this stuff all the time, but there's nothing wrong with using your brain instead of constantly relying on "how things have always been."