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-   -   Global Warming Farce exposed for the farce it is. (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=108823)

DSTRen13 11-24-2009 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter (Post 1869710)
Does anyone remember Red Dye # 2, alar, chlorfloro carbons, freon, DDT, etc.?

Yes.

RU OX Alum 11-24-2009 10:32 PM

chlorfloro carbons were used to make ashtma inhalers

I find it harder to breathe without them.

KSig RC 11-25-2009 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter (Post 1869710)
Does anyone remember Red Dye # 2, alar, chlorfloro carbons, freon, DDT, etc.?

I don't disagree that a good amount of this is agenda-driven, but that doesn't mean it's wrong prima facie. Also, on your list above, at least half really don't support your point at all . . .

ThetaPrincess24 11-26-2009 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 1869622)
Sorry, but even if you completely ignore climate change, excessive carbon has been shown to have deleterious effects on both flora and fauna. The only questionable aspect of cap and trade is that it is a pretty useless and expensive policy without the full cooperation of the rest of the world. With both India and China ramping up their capacities to pollute, I question whether cap and trade or any single-country environmental reform can have any sort of significant environmental impact whatsoever.

Co-sign!

Ghostwriter 11-30-2009 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 1870021)
I don't disagree that a good amount of this is agenda-driven, but that doesn't mean it's wrong prima facie. Also, on your list above, at least half really don't support your point at all . . .

It certainly throws into question the data used to support the argument. My point being that these were all instances of extremes taken to "protect the population". Banning DDT caused deaths from malaria to rise precipitously. I too cannot use my inhaler for my asthma and the other product does not control my attacks. Red Dye # 2 never was a threat. This just reminds me of the story of the "boy who cried wolf". Who the heck is going to believe these "experts" after all these frauds?

I reject that there is actully manmade global warming. The earth may or may not be warming but so what. How do we know that this is not just the "hand of God" sending the Earth through it's normal cyclical temperature change? How do we know that other countries will not benefit from an increase in the temperature of the Earth? How do we know that there really will be deleterious effects from failing to jump on the band wagon and spending multibillions of $$ for someone like Al Gore's pet projects? This is agenda driven and I suspect it is a racket for some intellectuals to make lots of $$$$ via grants etc. With the data now in question, I would hope that those who have been supporters would now insist that there be new reasearch into the true changes in climate temperature.

MysticCat 11-30-2009 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter (Post 1870976)
This just reminds me of the story of the "boy who cried wolf". Who the heck is going to believe these "experts" after all these frauds?

Frauds? Seems like the wrong word to me. For it to have been a fraud, you have to show that there was intentional deceit. There is a difference between fraud and incomplete understanding.

Quote:

I reject that there is actully manmade global warming. The earth may or may not be warming but so what. How do we know that this is not just the "hand of God" sending the Earth through it's normal cyclical temperature change? How do we know that other countries will not benefit from an increase in the temperature of the Earth? How do we know that there really will be deleterious effects from failing to jump on the band wagon and spending multibillions of $$ for someone like Al Gore's pet projects?
On the other hand, how do we know there are not human activities that are negatively exaccerbating global warming? Why do you reject "manmade global warming"? Is it on the basis of scientific evidence (or lack thereof), or is it for some other reason?

Quote:

This is agenda driven and I suspect it is a racket for some intellectuals to make lots of $$$$ via grants etc.
There are agendas (and $$$$) driving both sides of the debate -- I don't see how that can be denied without buying into one agenda or the other.

Ghostwriter 11-30-2009 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1870985)
Frauds? Seems like the wrong word to me. For it to have been a fraud, you have to show that there was intentional deceit. There is a difference between fraud and incomplete understanding.

On the other hand, how do we know there are not human activities that are negatively exaccerbating global warming? Why do you reject "manmade global warming"? Is it on the basis of scientific evidence (or lack thereof), or is it for some other reason?

There are agendas (and $$$$) driving both sides of the debate -- I don't see how that can be denied without buying into one agenda or the other.

The data on DDT was fraudulently arrived at and was never properly vetted. Freon and the data supporting the ozone layer shrinking is very very questionable. When one doctor's, deletes or avoids opposing information while performing a "scientific" study I call it fraud. Ths is a true case of deceit on the part of the researchers at East Anglia University in England. Do you disagree? You cannot omit data that does not support your view. Sample sizes must be properly obtained so the margin of error is reasonable. Manipulated or incomplete data is worthless unless you are only trying to prove your POV at the expense of true scientific research.

I just don't believe we are "smart" enough or "dumb" enough to change nature. If we wanted to change the Earth's temperature in either direction (cooler or hotter) I do not believe we could so so. 30 years ago we were in a "global cooling" trend according to the environmentalist. When the data changed the hue and cry changed.

Soo, that is true with everything. But in this case we are accepting the environmentalist agenda without question and failing to properly vet the reports and studies that "support" the view that man is the reason for global warming.

My agenda is that I have seen man go overboard pandering to the environmental extremist and I am very concerned where this new effort and the multi billions or trillions of $$$ that will be extorted from us will take our country.

During the time the Earth has existed we have had numerous changes in the climate. Both cooling and warming. Many of these changes occured prior to man inhabiting the Earth. The data is incomplete and the timeframes are too narrow.

Follow th money!!!!

MysticCat 11-30-2009 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter (Post 1870993)
Ths is a true case of deceit on the part of the researchers at East Anglia University in England. Do you disagree?

Perhaps it's the lawyer in me, but I don't believe I know enough to say one way or the other. I will readily admit that it looks fishy, and they may really have been trying to pull a fast one. But even if they were, I have a hard time translating that it into an international conspiracy to perpetrate a fraud. I would need a lot more evidence of that.

Quote:

I just don't believe we are "smart" enough or "dumb" enough to change nature. If we wanted to change the Earth's temperature in either direction (cooler or hotter) I do not believe we could so so.
Not smart enough to change nature? Tell that to the Dutch, who've done a pretty good job of controlling the oceans and wetlands around them. Seems to me rather naive to think we can put whatever we want to in the air without any consequence at all.

Quote:

My agenda is that I have seen man go overboard pandering to the environmental extremist and I am very concerned where this new effort and the multi billions or trillions of $$$ that will be extorted from us will take our country.
To be clear, I'm all for healthy skepticism. But I think what is basically an anti-environmentalist agenda is just as biased and unproductive as a do-whatever-the-environmentalists-say agenda.

srmom 11-30-2009 03:22 PM

And then we have this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6936328.ece

Quote:

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building.

The admission follows the leaking of a thousand private emails sent and received by Professor Phil Jones, the CRU’s director. In them he discusses thwarting climate sceptics seeking access to such data.

In a statement on its website, the CRU said: “We do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (quality controlled and homogenised) data.”

The CRU is the world’s leading centre for reconstructing past climate and temperatures. Climate change sceptics have long been keen to examine exactly how its data were compiled. That is now impossible.

Roger Pielke, professor of environmental studies at Colorado University, discovered data had been lost when he asked for original records. “The CRU is basically saying, ‘Trust us’. So much for settling questions and resolving debates with science,” he said.
How convenient that the raw data was dumped, and all that was kept was the revised data, using what has been shown by the emails to be politically contrived data, so that now noone can scientifically test the raw data...

So much for the scientific method of testing raw data to authenticate and replicate results thereby proving a hypothesis...

And from an earlier article in the Times (of London - certainly not a bastian of right wing American journalism and hardly a Faux News;))

Quote:

What those emails suggested, however, was that Jones and some colleagues may have become so convinced of their case that they crossed the line from objective research into active campaigning.

In one, Jones boasted of using statistical “tricks” to obliterate apparent declines in global temperature. In another he advocated deleting data rather than handing them to climate sceptics. And in a third he proposed organised boycotts of journals that had the temerity to publish papers that undermined the message.

It was a powerful and controversial mix — far too powerful for some. Real Climate is a website designed for scientists who share Jones’s belief in man-made climate change. Within hours the file had been stripped from the site.

Several hours later, however, it reappeared — this time on an obscure Russian server. Soon it had been copied to a host of other servers, first in Saudi Arabia and Turkey and then Europe and America.

What’s more, the anonymous poster was determined not to be stymied again. He or she posted comments on climate-sceptic blogs, detailing a dozen of the best emails and offering web links to the rest. Jones’s statistical tricks were now public property.

Steve McIntyre, a prominent climate sceptic, was amazed. “Words failed me,” he said. Another, Patrick Michaels, declared: “This is not a smoking gun; this is a mushroom cloud.”
And:

Quote:

Some critics believe that the unit’s findings need to be treated with more caution, because all the published data have been “corrected” — meaning they have been altered to compensate for possible anomalies in the way they were taken. Such changes are normal; what’s controversial is how they are done. This is compounded by the unwillingness of the unit to release the original raw data.

David Holland, an engineer from Northampton, is one of a number of sceptics who believe the unit has got this process wrong. When he submitted a request for the figures under freedom of information laws he was refused because it was “not in the public interest”.

Others who made similar requests were turned down because they were not academics, among them McIntyre, a Canadian who runs the Climate Audit website.

A genuine academic, Ross McKitrick, professor of economics at the University of Guelph in Canada, also tried. He said: “I was rejected for an entirely different reason. The [unit] told me they had obtained the data under confidentiality agreements and so could not supply them. This was odd because they had already supplied some of them to other academics, but only those who support the idea of climate change.”
Sounds like a Hollywood movie plot. Deny access, deny access, deny access - WOOPS! we dumped the data!! :rolleyes:

Quote:

This weekend it emerged that the unit has thrown away much of the data. Tucked away on its website is this statement: “Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites ... We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (ie, quality controlled and homogenised) data.”

If true, it is extraordinary. It means that the data on which a large part of the world’s understanding of climate change is based can never be revisited or checked. Pielke said: “Can this be serious? It is now impossible to create a new temperature index from scratch. [The unit] is basically saying, ‘Trust us’.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6936289.ece


Okay, just Wow...

KSig RC 11-30-2009 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmom (Post 1870999)
And from an earlier article in the Times (of London - certainly not a bastian of right wing American journalism and hardly a Faux News;))

Hilariously, the London Times is owned and operated by Rupert Murdoch.

KSig RC 11-30-2009 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter (Post 1870976)
I reject that there is actully manmade global warming. The earth may or may not be warming but so what. How do we know that this is not just the "hand of God" sending the Earth through it's normal cyclical temperature change?

I'm not sure I can get on board with the consequences of this type of thought process - it effectively undermines all scientific research.

"Getting cancer from asbestos? F- it - hand of God! Can't prove it isn't a natural cycle to kill off poor people in high-rise apartments! Here, eat lead paint chips."

The point of the scientific method is to understand the underlying reasons and consequences of phenomena - so we can do more than postulate that man can't affect the Earth (and, once again, natural systems have shown NO ability to adapt to man past a certain point - where are all the new-growth rainforests popping up to replace species' habitats, etc.?) from the seat of our pants.

Quote:

How do we know that other countries will not benefit from an increase in the temperature of the Earth? How do we know that there really will be deleterious effects from failing to jump on the band wagon and spending multibillions of $$ for someone like Al Gore's pet projects?
These, however, are totally valid questions to ask - and the reason why a "Hand of God"/deus ex machina view of nature is neither ideal nor useful. These are things that should be explored - will a rise in temperature reduce the amount of arable land? How will rising oceans and fracturing ice caps affect climate?

And, perhaps most importantly: WHETHER OR NOT climate change is natural, since humans are essentially no longer subject to macroevolutionary forces due to technology, can we adapt fast or efficiently enough to offset the changes? I find that those who deny global climate change just assume the answer to that question is "yes" - without realizing that the reliance on industry to handle this is the real money trail. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul, except Paul doesn't give a shit about anything but the bottom line.

srmom 11-30-2009 03:42 PM

Oh really? haha, guess they have an agenda as well!!

I just can't believe some of the stuff that's coming out about this. Like I said, it sounds like the plot of a movie (Please cast Clive Owen somewhere in it ;)).

MysticCat 11-30-2009 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmom (Post 1870999)
And from an earlier article in the Times (of London - certainly not a bastian of right wing American journalism and hardly a Faux News;))

Well, we wouldn't expect it to be a bastion of American anything. But it is historically considered (with some exceptions) a bastion of British Conservatism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 1871002)
Hilariously, the London Times is owned and operated by Rupert Murdoch.

Yep.

And co-sign on everything else you said.

AOII Angel 11-30-2009 04:08 PM

I wouldn't call this a conspiracy, I'd call this a researcher who lost site of his true goal...finding the truth, not proving his theory correct. It is a common problem in science. He is not the first and will not be the last researcher to fall prey to this sort of error in judgement. He became convinced along the way that he was right and when data didn't fall in line with his conclusion, it became okay to throw it out. He is now a disgrace, mainly because he disposed of the raw data so no one can ever check to see if he truly is correct. His data is tainted.

On to the next topic, We have in the past damaged the environment with chemicals we've dumped into the water and released into the air...pretending we haven't is laughable. How much money has the government had to spend in cleanups?

Ghostwriter 11-30-2009 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 1871002)
Hilariously, the London Times is owned and operated by Rupert Murdoch.

Because it doesn't fit your agenda you shoot the messenger?


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