KSigkid, MysticCat, I don't see anything terribly wrong with this thread. I acknowledge that it's largely premised on stereotypes and unlikely to evolve into a productive discussion about anything. Nevertheless, the topic seems to be (or aspire to be) a discussion about what kind of hazing 'typically' occurs in different types of organizations. That's just fine, IMHO. If it gets nasty, I can simply lock things up.

Please keep in mind that I will not tolerate specific accusations made against any chapter or group unless supported by some sort of evidence.

Nor should you.

Exactly, which is why these types of topics (that have been had many times before) end in "she said/he said."

Pointless.

And even news stories of hazing don't tell us whether certain chapters (aggregated into types of organizations) do more physical, mental, or alcohol-related hazing.

A chapter can get in trouble for paddling but that doesn't mean that there wasn't more yelling and insulting pledges than paddling pledges. The paddling is simply what left the visible mark and ended up getting reported. The same goes for a chapter that gets in trouble for alcohol-related hazing.

So are these observations of patterns based on something substantive and qualitative? Quantitative means very little.

Right. Hence my trainwreck prediction. ;)

Nothing wrong with the thread in terms of being appropriate for the forum and within terms of service. And sure, some people like to have discussions on hazing. I just don't see value in this discussion, which is, as you say, based largely on stereotypes.

OK, lets phrase it in the contrapositive then. Does anyone know of any referenced case where an NPC Sorority or NPHC Fraternity or Sorority was nailed for Hazing because of an Alcohol overdose.

Does anyone know of a referenced case where an NIC Fraternity (which isn't also in the NPHC) or an NPC sorority was nailed for hazing because of short distance physical abuse.

Any truly psychological cases of hazing for any of the Fraternities?

Also, I don't think that there is a hazing case that involves solely ONE type of activity.

And furthermore, if we're going to continue with this (ridiculous) line of discussion, you have to define "psychological hazing."

Isn't all hazing psychological on some level?

And isn't alchohol overdose "physical?" You can't really categorize hazing in this manner.


Exactly.

That still doesn't answer the more basic question for me -- what's the point of this discussion?

Quoted for naraht.

FWIW, I know what he is trying to accomplish.

But, these types of discussions tend to go the same way, whether they are held on message boards or in-person. You always wonder why people care (some people care because they like to ask such questions; others care because they want to prove that certain orgs have better pledge processes); and you wonder how they know what they claim to know in order to make these observations.

Those of us who have been members for years and been in diverse GLO settings have pretty much seen or heard "it all" from every type of org. But even what we've seen or heard is a small percentage of what is actually going on.

I, with the help of several other people, have been keeping track of all charter revocations (that we hear about) in a stickied thread in this forum. The information there, of course, is probably not comprehensive as we're just relying on individuals to report cases they hear about, but it might be a good place to start.

If you really want to start to develop a sense for this stuff, I invite you to go back into the older threads on this forum and start compiling data in the way we've been doing in the charter revocations thread. Again, you're not going to get anything publishable, but if you want to get a good sense of what has been going on, that'd be where to start.

If your school's library has access to Lexis Nexis, you might consider doing a news article search for "hazing" and maybe type in a string of 'or' searches for greek letters, e.g.. "hazing" & alpha beta gamma delta...." That'd be better.

Or you can continue to talk about it in theory, just be aware that without concrete data, the discussion is of very little value as you're just regurgitating stereotypes and apparently expecting us to confirm those stereotypes as fact. Ain't gonna happen.

If you want to pursue this research and discuss it here, that could be a great thread. In fact, if you can compile previous years' data in the same way we're doing 2009-2010, I'll stick it to the top of the forum (assuming you also allow some sort of link to each incident report so it can be verified).

As I said in my last post, (just above this one) I think, if the OP is willing to compile some data, this could actually turn out to be a pretty interesting conversation. Otherwise, as you said, it's arguably appropriate and within the terms of the TOS (and the additional rules I made up for this forum), so it's not something I'm inclined to do anything about at this time.

I'm with you -- I never thought there was any reason for you or any other mod to do anything about this thread. Like I said, I just think it much more likely that this thread will result in a train wreck than in a valuable discussion.

Black people are brutes, white men are drunks, and white girls are mean girls.

Houston, we have stereotype...

Though in some ways, this perhaps makes it clearer. (Though in my original, it was more like "Black men are brutes, black women haven't yet hit a stereotype")

I've worked my way through the appendices of "Broken Pledges" by Hank Nuwer and "Black Haze: Violence, Sacrifice and Manhood in Black Greek-Letter Fraternities". "Black Haze"'s appendix gives full credit to "Broken Pledges" for being where his list started and there is a lot of overlap between the two.

For Black Haze, there are *two* of the fourty-seven hazing incidents listedioned that relate to Alcohol. There are actually the same number where fraternities are suspended due to gang-like confrontations between two or more fraternities. Most of them are non-alcohol physical abuse.

OTOH, in Broken Pledges, which covers a much wider range, the NIC hazing incidents seem to split about 50% Alcohol related, 40% "Animal House" hazing (covered in Peanut butter, with annoyed sheep, etc.) and 10% non-alcohol related physical abuse.

I'm not really sure for either how to count injury/death due to overexersion (500 jumping jacks in 90 degree weather) though.


In Broken pledges, the number of incidents involving sororities is very small (there are as many incidents involving non-sorority women: Eating clubs, military, etc. as sororities) and there doesn't appear to be any theme other than they aren't non-alcohol physical abuse.

I know there are more up to date sources, but this is a place to start...

...and sarcasm. :rolleyes:

I thought this part was very interesting when I read Black Haze. It did mention that white males also utilized psychological methods in addition to the inclusion of alcohol. I suppose it chalks up to different histories and opinions on what prerequisites for membership are.

ETA: I would count overexertion as physical abuse.