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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 1813254)

In just about every war the U.S. has fought in recent history, we've faced an enemy who didn't feel itself to be constrained by the rules of war, the Geneva Conventions, etc.

In each of those cases until recently, the U.S. has treated its prisoners with relative dignity and care.

Allow an anecdotal example of where this has been experienced (and I think I've shared this before on here). My chapter initiated a kid who was a Japanese student -- President of the school's international student body, etc. He came to the U.S. because his grandfather really loved the United States. This gentleman's grandfather fought in WWII and was caught by U.S. forces. Rather than being subjected to the horrible conditions he expected as a P.O.W., he was placed in a P.O.W. camp in the United States where he was treated extremely well. He came to love the United States, what we stand for (stood for?), etc. He imparted this admiration on his children and grandchildren. Treating P.O.W.s well shows these other countries what the U.S. stands for pays dividends down the road.

See, here's the thing - I'm not so sure we know whether or not the actions of the Bush administration (re: torture) were that far out of the norm from previous years. The problem is that we're trying to compare something in the present to something that would have been highly classified in the past, or that wouldn't have been necessarily recorded in any way.

I'm not trying to be a conspiracy theorist or anything, and I'm not trying to defend the Bush administration's tactics, but I just don't think we should be so quick to assume that the last administration was the first one to use those practices. Even the current administration has kept some of the same legal arguments when it comes to detainees...who knows how much the interrogation tacticts have changed.

As to the Japanese POW experience...speaking from personal experience, I've talked to some Japanese-Americans who were POWs, who had very different stories than what you heard from your chapter brother's grandfather. That's not to say that your chapter brothers' grandfather didn't have that experience...I just don't know how it compared to his fellow POWs.

Christopher Hitches getting waterboard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58

Matthew "Mancow" Muller getting waterboard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOA6LpcceOw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 1813254)

i'm sure there are a litany of stories like the one referenced above, but i'm also sure there are those who feel feel the opposite for the same treatment. like ksigkid said, i'm willing to bet at various times these procedures have been used and have produced results. we just don't know about them because no one ever felt the need to air it out.

i think bush is the worst president in the history of this country, but in this instance.....i'm not going to condemn his methods because i understand the intent. i'm not saying that fingernails need to be pulled out (just an example, people) upon capture, but these methods (ok, not necessarily that one) should be on the repertoire.

this is a harsh reality. hard people need hard lessons and hard methods. it just kills me when people (not you, but in general) seem to think that the agents in our government are a bunch of barbarians who don't think and just want to kill people. if we were in their situations, could we really do any better?