I guess that makes me a raging xenophobe
 

Yeah, I think we should have ALWAYS been more discriminatory of who we let in our country. That's very different from the discrimination that Blacks have received in our country, I don't even think you can compare the two. First of all, we were BORN here. Second of all, WE as a people haven't DONE anything to receive the treatment that we've received in this country. You can be discriminatory on who you let into your org, though, right? What's the difference????? There's a difference in ignorance and protecting something that's near and dear. We are talking about our entire nation, here. We are talking about your safety and mine. This is a matter of national security. This is not about following Arabs around in the mall because they might be stealing. This is not about stopping Arab people in their cars just because they are Arab. This is not about shooting an unarmed Arab man 41 times. This is not about hanging hundreds of Arab men because they looked at a white woman. This is about worrying if they are going to strap bombs to their backs and blow up our capital buildings in all of our capital cities. This is about protecting our children so that they can go see Barry Bonds beat Mark McGuire's record. This is about being able to go see Maxwell and Alicia without worrying if the coliseum is going to blow up with all the people inside. This is about protecting what is OURS, that WE have worked so hard for. Is that what White people are doing to us when they racially profile us? Is the lady in The Limited following us around the store because she is trying to protect something that is HERS that she worked so hard for? I don't think so. There is a difference in the discrimination that we have suffered in America and being more discriminatory with who we let in here. You ain't lettin' just anybody come in your house, right? Why is it ok to let just anybody come in your country?

When Tim McV did what he did, white people didn't have to fear anything. They would never fear one of their own. Do we live in the same country here????? White people don't think like that. Have you EVER seen a white person clutch their purse when another white person walks by??? You haven't, and you won't. White people couldn't love another White person more. Profile White america??? THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE. IMPOSSIBLE. Do you know how they really outnumber us????? Who woould profile them?? THEY WILL NEVER PROFILE THEMSELVES, BECAUSE THEY CAN DO NO WRONG. Even in this tragedy, they can't see how America brought this on themselves.

I personally think that they (Arabs) need to be either A) deported, or B) put into SAFE concentration camps. Unless you are a BORN US CITIZEN. Not naturalized, BORN. And I don't think that in these camps they should be treated badly, that's not necessary. It is a safety measure, WE ARE AT WAR. Are people walking around in rose colored glasses here? WE ARE AT WAR!! Don't think when we retaliate, there won't be some retaliation over here, AGAIN. So think about that. Think about all the Arabs that were CELEBRATING right here in the United States. Think about the ones that you go to school with, and how they will feel when we take whatever measures we take to retaliate. When they start blowing up chit, I bet people will change their minds about discrimination. Remember, the people who did this were students, just like some of the Arab students on your campus. Do you trust them just that much? Or do you believe in the whole "liberty and justice for all" BS that has been crammed down our throats, but is not true? It hasn't worked for us, yet, so I don't believe it.

People think I'm overreacting as to what is going to happen next. It would be unrealistic, I've been told, to think that they will bomb our sports games and our concerts and our schools and our capital buildings. I say it's no more unrealistic than them hijacking 4 planes simultaneously and crashing them into buildings. After that, anything is possible. People better wake up.

Call me a racist, call me a raging xenophobe, whatever. That's just my .08.

Re: I guess that makes me a raging xenophobe
 

Ideal08,

I see what you are saying and the part of me that is still so angry is inclined to agree with you. I say this because if it came down to it and the Arab community had a choice to make between their people and America, a great number of them would side with their own. To hell with America, we got what we wanted from her. However, I look at the long term affects and the idea of concentration camps is very scary and that would make us no better than the Nazis that tried to destroy the Jewish community. This is a religious war and I believe deep down we need to fight this on a spiritual level. I am not saying we should be passivist and let bin Laden have his way. But I think that with every move we make we should make sure that God is with us and is a part of our decision making process. I don't think you are a racist or a xenophobe, I think that you are simply angry at this situation and you are just expressing your feelings.

question
 

Can't you have concentration camps WITHOUT them being like the ones here in WW2 or the Nazi camps? That's not what I'm talking about. I just think they need to be detained. Not tortured or killed or starved or beaten or anything like that. Just detained. We don't have to harm them, geez. But the situation needs to be detained.

But they didn't attack us spiritually. Not to mention, everyone in America is not spiritual. We do have some Atheists, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are working in our government or fighting in our armed forces and what not. How does fighting this holy war spiritually translate to them? (I have so many questions.) I don't think this is a holy war at all. I think that that may be what it is to bin Laden and his crew, but not to us. Exactly how do you fight a holy war? Is that really what this is about? The Jews (Israel) taking the Palestinians land, had nothing to do with religion, did it? No more than the European settlers taking the Native American's land. That has nothing to do with religion. That's what I think this all goes back to (Israel & Palestine). This is more than just our troops remaining in Saudi Arabia, in my opinion. I guess I need someone to explain to me what a holy or religious war is, because I don't understand it. Not to mention, in everything I've read (even before 9/11/01) Osama and his crew have been described as a cult-like organization. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want David Kuresh and his peeps (if they were still alive) to wage a "religious" war on anyone in the name of the USA and Christianity. How do you fight a cult spiritually? Beyond the praying that we've all been doing? In my mind, what else can you do spiritually besides pray?

This whole thing has me :confused:. How can it be considered a Holy War when all of the Muslims around the world are not behind him??? If this was truly a spiritual thing, wouldn't they all pretty much believe the same things? Wouldn't they all fight for the same values? I understand that there are different strings of Muslims (Shiite, Sunni, etc.), but I just don't understand this whole thing. Don't they all consider Mecca to be the most holy of lands? Wouldn't they all want our troops out of Saudi Arabia? Wouldn't they have worked together on a plan or something to get us out? Why is it just the Taliban? How can one small group wage a Holy War? That's like one Protestant church bombing Vatican City for whatever reason, and calling it a holy war, when no other Protestants are behind that one church. Yall get what I'm sayin? It makes no sense to me. None of this mess makes any sense. :confused:

Help me out yall, because there is something I either don't know or I'm missing something. :confused:

Re: I guess that makes me a raging xenophobe
 

Ideal08,
I don't think you are racist, but angry and hurt like many Americans. Although the majority of blacks were born here, that doesn't mean that discrimination against blacks is just limited to black Americans. Just ask Aber Louima and if he was still alive Amadou Diallo. I agree that we as blacks haven't done anything to deserve to cruel and unhumane treatment that we have received in American. But neither has the Arab Americans that were also born here. Your American citizenship holds no more weight than theirs. Several Arab American and those thought to be Muslim, were not asked if they were American citizens before attacked and killed. Do you think there were only Black and White Americans in the WTC. The same agruement you make about our safety and perserving OUR America is one that many KKK and Nazi's use. America is a country buit from immigrants. Should we have tighter security yes. Also I will state again that I do think immigration laws should be tighter. Black men were hung beaten and killed for simple reasons as looking at a white woman. And the whites that attacked them justified it as keeping their women safe, keep what was theirs safe and pure.
Tell your theory to Japanese Americans about the camps and see how they feel. Why not just expeal these people from our country until the conflict is over. Many Muslims are peaceful and are here to make a better life for themselves and their familes. Not to blow things up. I'm frightened to but you are not thinking this out clearly. I admit I do take a double look at Arabs, but then I have to remember that God has a plan. We may not understand it now and we may never, but he is in control and has a plan. Stay strong

Re: I guess that makes me a raging xenophobe
 

While I definitely agree that entry into this country should be extremely more discerning, I don't agree with the 'idea' of concentration camps. I believe that would be the initiation of racial discrimination in it's highest form. What makes an Arab American potentially dangerous to the United States? How do you define an Arab American? What classification do you place an Arab American of mixed race? To classify and segregate a people strictly by race smacks of what has been happening to us for the last 150 years. I don't know the numbers but I can assure you that just as we African Americans have made monumental contributions to the medical, science, technological fields so have they. Imagine your mother needs heart surgery and the closest reknown heart surgeon is Arab American. Yet, you can't reach him because he's within the walls of a concentration camp. What is your concern at that point? His ability to operate on your mom or the idea that he may be a potential threat to you because others of his nationality have committed heinous acts.

I think that bottom line our lives have drastically changed from what we've known them to be. I can't begin to think that I know where all of this going; yet, I do know that if we are to survive it we have to remain respectful of all human life.

Re: question
 

Nope. It always gets out of hand.

Besides, all Americans and all people in America, legal or otherwise are protected under the right to life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and are innocent until proven guilty.

Concentration camps--even a benign one, would usurp these rights.

Let's not forget that Afghanistan is a divided country right now, between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance. Americans of Middle Eastern descent are also divided on this issue, so we have to be careful not to discriminate against them due to their nationality. I think ZChi gave us very insightful information in her (?) post.

I doubt seriously if the FBI is not currently investigating the backgrounds of immigrants now (I know, too little, too late???), but this may actually be the best approach at this time. CNN reported that there are 75 people in government custody now and another 200 are being sought, not necessarily suspects, but because they believe some of them may have pertenent information concerning the attacks and may try to flee.

As far as retailiation, we have to retaliate, but what's the best means? We'd have to make sure that innocent lives aren't lost, or we aren't much better than bin Laden. Remember, all Afghanistan people do not agree with bin Laden. Thousands are fleeing their country (and this was before the attacks).

Here is an article from CNN...

Whatever
 

I see that what I said was misconstrued. I didn't say put any and all Arab AMERICANS in anybody's concentration camp. Maybe some people need to re-read my post. I said that it WOULD NOT APPLY TO ARAB AMERICAN BORN CITIZENS. In other words, Arab IMMIGRANTS and Arab NATURALIZED citizens (b/c we could have made a mistake in granting them citizenship). I never said anything about putting ALL Arabs into concentration camps. Please re-read my statement.

I don't have to ask the Japanese Americans anything about their experiences in the camps, because in my post, I ALSO said that the camps didn't have to be like they were in WW2 or in Nazi Germany. I SAID that they people didn't have to be harmed. If that is not possible, then so be it, it's not possible, don't do it. But please, don't quote me and then twist my words.

Lastly, please try and not make this personal. Meaning, we can voice our opinions, and agree to disagree, seeing as how none of us in this democracy have any say in how we retaliate. Saying that I am not thinking things through clearly is rude and uncalled for, in my opinion. Just because I disagree with you does NOT mean I'm not thinking clearly.

Re: Whatever
 

I think in the case of using concentrations will be in disagreement. I believe that your intention maybe one thing people who have different intentions may misconstrue and take the idea of detaining to a whole new level. There are some sick people in this world as we saw last week. I say that this is a religious war because from what I understand and what my husband has shares with me, bin laden and his supporters believe that America is essentially a modern day Sodom and Gamorrah(sp?). We are a country that tries to impose our beliefs on them. We are like a Babylon. (If I am incorrect, someone please correct me). So on some level we have to approach bin Laden and his followers on the same level. Finally, I reread my post and I think I may have gave you the assumption that you weren't thinking clearly and for that I apologize. My INTENTION was not to do that. Your comments just sounded so similar to how a part of me feels. I was speaking from my heart sisterfriend. This is such a horrible situation and I hope that we both can come to a point where we can see some resolution to a devestating event. Much love.

Re: Re: Whatever
 

I have read in the news that America is waiting on a response from the Taliban. The Taliban's leaders are supposedly still enroute to meet to see how they should handle this. One of the things that was mentioned is that they will probably discuss whether to declare a "Holy War" against the US if we attack.

Re: Re: Whatever
 

Thank you, darling1! Now I understand why it's being called a holy war, at least a little better. I have a friend who also thinks that America is the present day Sodom and Gomorrah. That is SO interesting. I'm going to have to do some research on that.

Re: Re: Re: Whatever
 

The proper name is "Jihad". It means that the Muslim will forcefully defend his religion and beliefs when needed.

Now Ideal, when you say that we should 'detain' all Arabs do you mean all people of Arab descent or just Arab Muslims? What about people that are Muslim but not Arab?? What about people that are married to American men or women and have American children? Should they have to go?

That all seems a bit complicated.

This whole thing is rather interesting for me considering I work with MANY Arabs and have studies the principles of Islam extensively. As I read the papers and watch the news, I find it ironic that many people are still having a hard time separating regular Islam from Extreme Islam.

When I did my thesis on Women in Islam last year I went to the exact same mosque that Bush visited yesterday. The people there provided me with numerous resources to help. They were extremely happy that I was seeking their help in my paper. I have never met a nicer group of men and women, and I will never forget that.

Islam in general is a very powerful religion. It calls in more converts than Christianity, Buddhism, and Judaism together and the rate of conversion from Muslim to non-Muslim is 1-2%. I once saw some evangelist on TV complaining that Muslims are 'stubborn' when it comes to converting. They are known throughout the world as the most devoted until the very end. You pair that general power a rich, sick and highly persuasive person like Osama bin Laden and you have a deadly combination.

Discrimination
 

oh my i certainly hope we learn to be more compassionate, not more discriminatory, i listen to alot of talk radio and man folks in our country (everywhere really) are really hyprocrites, as IF we as Americans have never jacked up anyone else, but some feel that one's skin color measures the quality of compassion they will offer to any particular tragedy or struggle. HOW SAD.

Re: Whatever
 

Ideal08
Keep in mind we are all on the same side but with different opionions. I didn't think anybody took what you were saying personal. I know I didn't. Also for the record the camps for Japanese Americans were not hostile camps. They operated very much the way you want the Arab camps to work. But still many Japanese Americans lost their homes, businesses and other property. Understand when people here concentration camps, we think, Nazi. How could we not. Also what happens to the Arab American children who were born here when their parents that are Naturalized citizens go to these camps. Who takes care of them. Should we send them to your house? Do they go into our Foster Care system that already has over 600,000 children in it? When I said I didn't think you were thinking things clearly I was trying to insult you. I assumed like many Americans you are upset and was trying to offer support. Hence, my last statement to you was to stay strong.
Also Bin Laden and his followers think we are in a holf war "Jihad" because he thinks America opposes Islam and is trying to end the practice of Islam in this World. Muslim's actually believe that a Jihad takes place when they are prohibited from practicing Islam. Bin Laden and his followers are extreme in their beliefs because Islam teaches peace. Which is why Muhammed Ali would not fight in the Vietnam War. The majority of Muslim believe in peace.

We have to realize that terrorists come in all colors, races and sexes. Not all terrorists are Arab or from the middle east. Nor are all Arabs or middle easterners terrorists. They can be German, Japanese, Thai....whatever....even natural born AMERICANS.

Example - Timothy McVeigh - an american and former us army infantryman. I would consider him a terrorist.

The way these people work is they become a part of regular working class civilation for a long period of time. Your next door neighbor could be a terrorist. Think about it. You don't what goes on behind closed doors. If they aren't already citizens, they come to this country, profess faith in america's democracy, take a citizenship test, etc. Next, they start working in regular jobs and/or go to schools. If they're really on a mission here, that's how they'll do it. Maybe 5-10 years down the line, they go to flight school or start working at an airport or somewhere else where they obtain and maintain security clearances, etc. 5 years later, that's a valued emplyee. You may never know it, but behind closed doors, that same person who you've gotten to know, may worship a false God and may be in cahoots to plot an attack against this country. Then, one day, this person carries out his OR HER mission.

This country is grounded in principles of democracy and freedom for all who want to take part. A really good terrorist will pass any "selective" immigration/citizenship process implemented. Where there is a will there is a way.

It's not just Arabs we need to be concerned about. There's a whole lot of people out there who don't like America. There are also a whole lot of people out there who don't believe and accept Jesus as their personal savior. I'm just as concerned about all of them.

Like it or not, that's the world we live in. God has a plan. Read Revelations. You'll see that this is all a part of God's plan and there's nothing that we can do to stop it.