Funny, hazing doesnt seem to have ruined our greek systems

Yet.

Yeah, Delt, not yet. We're only some of the best in the country, and have been for decades. I'm sure its coming...or MAYBE, despite everyone's infinite knowledge of what works for greek systems, we have a better grasp down here of what works and what advances our greek organization. I know, I know, its a crazy idea, I'm sure people from Oswego State's greek system know wayyyy more about traditional greek life than people at Alabama or Texas or UGA.

Well, good luck then.

It only takes the hammer to come down once before the S hits the fan.

Yeah, we've never had any trouble here for hazing. Oh wait, it happens every semester, and yet our greek systems are still top notch. Good theory, boys.

Good, may you keep it up while you are there!!!!

shinerbock,

Keep it up! Your track record PROVES that you are doing it right. There are many other Houses out there that still Pledge REAL men.

Maybe there should be another Greek classification. "Fraterniorites.?"

Tom and Delt have long ago given up and bowed to the political correctiveness of the weak.

N2;
There are several "track records" to bear in mind.
1) In this group, in every single "Hazing" thread, we have found several problems with the term alone. Not only do we have our own POV/IMHO of what it is and what it is not, but we also perceive everyone else's POV/IMHO differently.
2) As also shown, in every single "Hazing" thread, the laws, policies, rules, regulations, definitions are different everywhere and in many if not all too many cases poorly written and defined. And/or perceived differently by all the different paties involved.
3) As shown not only here but in other groups, "Hazing" has closed many chapters in the past two months alone.
4) There are great chapters that "haze" and there are great chapters that do not and both may seem to do well. Then, of course, there are chapters in both camps (as well as in the middle ground ) that are not great, and fail. And no matter which camp they were in, when they fail, they not only fail themselves, they fail their group and the rest of the GLO's.
5) Bear in mind that RM covers a great deal more than "hazing" and poor RM and leadership/management in general causes 'problems' of their own.

I am sure that one could add a few more items to the above.

As for my point, I trying not to make one just trying to summarize what has been said here over and over again.

And, if you have not read any of the rest of the threads I do offer self-disclosure: My chapter lost its charter due in part to "hazing" and general stupidity. Which would fall into part three above: Great chapters which lose their way, lose their ID, their goals, lose their ties, their meaning,their leadership et al and fail.

And BTB N2, I went back to your posts in 2001 and read them.
This was rather interesting:"
Lil_G,

Because I am not free to discuss the issues that I have here in public. The anonymity allows the free (or somewhat freely) open discussion. The public discussion of anything that my chapter does in our pledge period is strictly prohibited. The bottom line is the fact that you want to know my e-mail address. What possible reason could you, or anyone else, have to know that?

I have no desire to have a private conversation with anyone outside of my Brothers on the subject of this board. The risk is simply too large."
Interesting because you had posted just prior that you HAD talked ("exchanged notes") to someone outside of your group about hazing and pledging.
And AFAIK, in PM's e-mail address are not given out.

And much more to the point of this group, between 2001 and 2006, the world has changed a bit. As I indicated above, problems of all sorts have grown.

Hey Shiner,

It's great to know that undergrads understand more about the greek system, how it works and its problems than the folks who have been around the system for years and have served as advisors and division and national officers.

Go ahead and have some fun, though, and if (heaven forbid) you chapter shows up in this forum sometime, we will not say, "I told you so," but rather mourn its suspension or loss of charter along with you.

All you have to do is read these threads to see that it can happen anywhere.

Yeah, we'll take our chances...like we have been for the last 100 years. I'm sure you're right though, its crazy how people in the huge southern traditional greek systems just won't heed the advice of people from other systems who have no knowledge of greek life in the south. Thanks for the warning though, we appreciate your misguided concern.

Shiner;
This is now the academic year 2006-2007, not 1906-1907.
In the past 100 years, or more importantly the past say 20 years, the campus world has changed.

As much as your either wish, think or believe that your chapter, that your school, that your region operates on it own, in it's own world,or plane or place is just not so.

You are not in Vegas.

There just maybe some concerned follow Greeks on this board who may just know a bit more than you do at this time.

And this is true on and about all campus's and chapters.

I add that in part because I have an idea of what you define as hazing based on prior conversations. IIRC, your definition of Hazing is not any near an extreme as a few others.
And as I have posted above and before, there are major problems defining and perceiving what Hazing is.

This is utterly ridiculous. You guys are right. I'm sorry for presuming to know what happens in southern greek systems, simply because I was a member of one. I eagerly await the fallout from when all greek life down here crashes, just as you say. I also sincerely apologize for not knowing it was 2006-2007. I was under the impression we still operated under the traditions of previous generations. I know, its crazy. Like, for real dude, personal responsibility is so 1907.


*Side note, I'd like to thank people like you^^^ for making greek life what it has become today. Hopefully in the future, the following things will happen in southern fraternities:
1) We'll allow anybody in (being sure to include gay people and plenty of minorities, regardless of whether they possess the characteristics we traditionally sought, after all, tradition=BAD)
2) We'll initiate the day after rush ends (no use risking it right?)
3) We'll stop all alcohol consumption and social contact with females, and instead play xbox while talking about how much we love the brotherhood
4) Most importantly, we'll coddle all new members and make sure they have high self esteem (Because the point of a fraternity is to make people feel good about themselves, thats the primary objective, right?)

Thanks man. I was trying to find some main ideas to propel my fraternity forward. Thanks brah! Frat on!

We know that there are two ways of doing things -- hazing and not hazing. The trouble is that the definition of "hazing" has become bastardized to include a lot of things that probably aren't going to be harmful to anyone.

Many schools, states and groups take the hazing definition too far. They use catch-all phrases such as "anything which causes mental discomfort" which could pretty much mean anything up to and including anxiety of a pledge who is about to go through an initiation ritual as to what that ritual might include. Are we to provide them with "What to expect" manuals in order to stave off the dreaded mental discomfort?

That might be a good question. I sure as hell don't have the answer. If you were to read the rule literally, I think yes. If you were to apply a few shreds of common sense here and there, I think not.

-- But applying common sense, I can tell you that a properly designed scavenger hunt poses no risk to anyone. I can tell you that some public stunts of "bufoonery" (yes, that's in Sigma Nu's rules) would hurt no one and create a great potential bonding experience. I could go on, but you get the picture. My chapter is very by-the-book of course, and we win awards for it. Our pledges get a lot out of their pledgeship, and we don't haze as best as I can tell. I've discussed these things at length though with brothers from other chapters at national and regional events. There's definitely solid ground upon which to question some of the rules that have been set out.

Our HQs respectively have done a poor job in laying the rules out. When it comes time to enforce them, the "offending" chapters often bear the burden of poorly written and ambiguous rules. Phrases such as "mental discomfort" really need to be dispensed with. An 18 year old pledge or officer in charge of the pledge "experience" ought to be able to read these rules and be able to determine for himself what is and is not allowed. Most of our current rules don't really allow that.

jon1856,

You've taken my quotes a bit out of context, but in the first one I think I was being called out to specifically explain the hazing that occurs in my chapter. You probably know as well as I that an email address is almost as easy to track as a phone number. No thanks.

Shinerbock, from my reading of his post, is a brother of a very traditional fraternity. To him and his chapter as to I and mine, tradition is almost a religion. Without knowing, I would venture to say that their Alumni are very involved in his chapter. Just last year I represented my chapter in a hazing charge brought by another fraternity. When one of our pledges looses anything that they are required to carry, it is returned in a block of ice that can be found in the house freezer. They then must carry it until it melts. Hazing? Delt and Tom would probably say yes. However, the University said NO.

My biggest problem with all these PC Fraternities is that because they lack the structure and discipline to operate as a Fraternity should, they cause scrutiny on mine. In 2006, almost all of our pledge period happens behind closed doors. I'm not talking about ridiculous things that are considered hazing on this board, ie. books, pins, scavenger hunts, etc. but the REAL pledge period.

My only description of our pledge period on this board follows "The process has 3 phases. Breakdown, education, and build up. In the first phase the pledge can do nothing correct. Most of their social habits are broken. We change everything from the way they dress, hairstyle, eat, wipe their ass, ect. As time goes on they have less and less time to spend on outside interest and friendships. Almost all of our DE-pledges come in this phase. For the ones that stay, this is the point that they give up being an individual. They identify their success' and failures' with that of the pledge class. During education they learn all they need to know about acceptable behavior, the Fraternity, Brotherhood, ect. The build up is the most fascinating. The pledge class is placed into situations that they can deal with and succeed on a regular basis. The task become more difficult and much more personal as time goes on. Finally, they get to the point where the pledge class needs the Brothers to succeed, and the Brothers produce. When they get to the level that they are not hesitant or embarrassed by anything, they are ready to begin initiation week. "

As far as my discussing my chapters hazing with others, there are a couple, specifically one other Alumni President that I have frank discussions with. Our chapters have similar processes and as such similar risk.

In shinerbock's recent "utterly ridiculous" post, his satire is unfortunately the reality for all the PC fraternities. That is SAD.