I hate to revisit the DePauw situation, but one of the things that the women who left that chapter alleged was that they were keeping their numbers steady and that they always had women coming up who wanted to pledge them. They weren't in debt or unable to fill offices. But that wasn't good enough for the national, she said, they wanted the "Barbie" image. Basically, she said if DZ would have just let them be "the smart quirky chapter" and recruit the smart quirky women, they wouldn't have had a problem.

If a chapter at an SEC school was under that much pressure to pledge women, who the hell do you think they end up pledging? Anyone who will sign a bid, that's who. What if they got a huge pledge class, got their numbers up to total, but every woman in that pledge class was over 200 pounds with a mustache? Do you think that would fly?

Believe me, I've been on the receiving end of "you need to pledge more girls and get your numbers up, no matter what" and then a year later, hearing "WHAT ON EARTH made you pledge those girls?"

I'm glad we refused to do that. I'm happier closing then bidding every girl who walks through the door.

This was very true on my campus. My chapter was also "small and struggling" (we usually had around 100 members on a campus where the other sororities had 120-150 members). We are not in any financial danger whatsoever, and, though our national really wants us to make quota, we're not being pressured as intensely as this group apparently is. Anyway, this past year, though we did release several women who did not meet our standards for whatever reason (we refuse to be a "warm bodies" chapter), we were fairly good about following the release figures. We ended up with enough women attending our pref parties to fill more than three pledge classes; however, when it came time to sign bid cards, so many women chose not to list our chapter that we barely matched to half of quota. We are not actually collectively "fat" or "ugly" or "dorky," but this is the reputation that our chapter has acquired, and nothing we did to combat it in my four years as an active seemed to much of an effect. This is not me wearing blinders about the reality of our chapter - just about every member of my chapter could easily blend in with the membership of the majority of the groups on my campus. The reality seems to be that, apparently, every semi-competitive or competitive campus has to have a "bad sorority." As recently as five years ago, our chapter was just another "mid-to-lower tier" group that had no problem coming close to or making quota every year. Unfortunately, my campus lost a couple sororities in rapid succession, and we were apparently next in line to be "that house"...and so it went.

As long as the other sororities and the fraternities on our campus remain devoted to telling pnms that we are the "fatties," that we are closing this year, that we're the "sorority that takes the girls nobody else wants," etc, it will be extremely difficult to impossible for us to make quota. It really is a shame for us to lose out on so many quality women, and it is just as much of a shame that these quality women miss out on Greek life entirely because they cannot overlook the stereotypes they've heard - and, honestly, who can blame them for wanting to avoid that kind of stigma for three-four years? I guess what I'm getting at is that sometimes, it really isn't laziness or lame excuses when a chapter is smaller. We have had some success with informal recruitment, but most women on my campus don't live under a rock.

It's too bad that greeks treat one another this way, because it weakens us as a whole. Truly, if the sorority that does the most negative talking about us gets its wish and sees our chapter closed...they're next in line.

That's immaterial in the scenario I'm presenting. They are warm bodies in the chapter. They are making the chapter attain quota.

Oh wow, that first sentence really has something to it. Year after year, I've noticed that the stronger groups tend to know how to pick who'll stay in and who'll drop or transfer. Those groups end up with big senior classes.

talk about a veiled insult

Nope, not in the least. You look at the composites of various groups at a school and you realize that the stronger groups have managed to keep far more seniors.

No one can predict life. No one knows who will stay and who will drop or transfer. What you said sounded really bitchy even if you didn't mean it that way.
My pledge class dissolved for various reasons. There are only two active sisters left from it. I had to leave for unforeseen medical issues. They never thought that I'd have to drop because of that when I was given a bid and neither did I. My chapter is strong.

Well guys, anyone can manage to take a statement the wrong way if they want. I guess y'all have.

Again: through 35 years of involvement with the Greek system, I have seen that the stronger groups on any given campus tend to manage to maintain more seniors. They don't seem to have many who get married in the middle of college or transfer or flunk out for whatever reason. This is not a dig on anybody at all. Look at some of the rosters on college websites and compare size of senior classes.

And if you still think I'm trying to insult someone, too bad. You're way too sensitive.

Well I guess I'll have to find out where the stronger chapters are hiding their crystal balls and talk to the wholesalers stocking them. That must be the secret to large senior classes when you're handing out bids-knowing the future and all.

What you CAN do is average the attrition rates over a 3-5 year period and have an idea of how many seniors will probably drop out for one reason or another. It's kinda like figuring relase #s for recruitment.

So if a girl marries her boyfriend junior or senior year before he gets sent to the army, then she's from a weak chapter? And since when is getting married the same as flunking out of college?

I'm with you, carnation.

Too often, people get defensive because of their own particular situation.

Yeah, I can't get my head around the numbers thing. All I'm saying is, it's not fair to say that stronger chapters know how to pick the right women with dedication to sorority life. There's only so much you can do before handing out a bid. Can they afford it, are their grades good, do they seem normal?
My chapter is pretty big for a northeast sorority. We have a ton of seniors who graduate each year. But occasionally there are bad classes for whatever reason.
Numbers will only get you so far in figuring out who will stay committed.
I wish, with all my heart, that I could go back and have at least one semester as an active. I wish it everyday.
You get what I'm saying though, right? PeppyGPhiB's chapter was small because people dropped, but people dropped because they figured that they could. If no one wants a small chapter to begin with, you're working with what you can. I just don't see how to find a way to make absolutely sure that you're getting fully committed new members who will stay through to their senior year.

Or else the seniors stayed because the groups were stronger and had more to offer. i.e. the social status or connections they got from being an XYZ were something that enabled them to get student govt offices and such. Or as some people have pointed out, local political offices.

If being a Nu Mu alumna gets you an "in" with the local Junior League and you want to be in JL more than life itself, you'll stay in Nu Mu thru senior year...even if you're miserable and hate every minute of it.

I guess it all depends on the defintion of "strong group" you're using.