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Quote:

Originally posted by RUgreek

If someone, and I mean anyone ever walked up to me and used the k-word, I would react in an equal manner. That's the difference, I hope that clears it up.

RUgreek

What is "the K word" ?:confused: I don't know what you're talking about. Please PM me.

Re: ownership of the n word

Quote:

Originally posted by lovelyivy84
Do you really want to debate this?

Blacks using the word nigger is like women calling themselves bitches- an incidence of cultural reclamation of a word- basically using it before it can be thrown at us in an attempt to degrade or demean. That doesn't make it a good word, it just means that it has a different context and meaning when MANY black people say it, a feeling of brotherhood in struggle.

I can not think of one singleincidence of a white person using the word nigger that can be seen in this light. In my opinion, there is no sense in which a white person can use the word nigger and have a feeling of brotherhood with blacks, or culturalreclamation of this term. Why? Because of the historical fact of why and how nigger was said by whites.

I personally am past the whole debate. You can call me a nigger all day and I'm going to do what I have to do. When all's said and done a word has no power to demean me, but it certainly has the ability to make you look like an asshole when you say it.

Personally, I would never use the word no matter who's company i'm in because I considered it as offensive and demeaning as the nortorious 7 dirty words. I don't want to debate ownership, but just recognize it exists and because it does, this reinforces discrimination and racism on another level.

Historical facts and stuggle is important, trust me I've been dealing with cultural problems like that for a long time, but it's still no excuse to discriminate a word by person. I'm not trying to bring anyone down, but I can understand the culture reclamation of the word, but it just doesn't make sense that it should matter. Older generations seem to have a struggle or reclamation "right" to the word, I don't see why the young generations today need to use it, it's just an offensive word in my book.

RUgreek

Quote:

Originally posted by lovelyivy84
RUGreek Let me break it down for you.

Race is a purely social construct. This is not something debatable, it is a scientific fact.

The only difference that can be positively identified between members of different races are cosmetic- skin color and hair texture. Even that is pushing it- there are people classified as white who are significantly darker skinned than some classified as black. There are black people whose hair is naturally straighter than many whites. There are tendencies and correlations between members of certain ethnic groups, or identified racial groups, but there is nothing that can be scientifically identified as a characteristic of one race.

Here's an example- a person who has two black parents, and yet is lighter skinned than many whites, and can't tan, but burns. Her hair is kinky. What race is she?

Or how about this - a female whose mother is black and whose father is white and yet appears to be completely white- the child is blonde and blue eyed. What race is she?

Or how about this one: A man who is 1/8 black, and yet has dark skin, and straight hair. What race is he?

Or better yet: the whole island of Puerto Rico is a combination of white, indigenous peoples and African slaves. Yet racially they are labeled hispanic. Hispanic is not a race because it encompasses those who are dark as night and positively Nordic in features. It is a culture. Where do you draw lines in that society? You have families where not one person is identifiable as being of the same "racial" group as their brother or sister, or even their mother or father- a mother is black, a father white, and the child looks taino! Yet they are all blood relatives.

Where do you draw a line here? It's absolutely arbitrary and can't be done in a scientific fashion.

This is all not to mention that there really is no such thing as a "black race" in America simply because ALL African-AMericans are a racial mixture to one degree or another as a legacy of slavery and the systemativ rape of black women that took place. The Black American "race" is a mixed one to such an extent that it is impossible to establish a standard of "black". You can't look at a blood test, or an MRI or a catscan and say someone is black. You ALSO can't look at hair color and skin color and say it. It's about personal definitions. There is NO scientific standard. The same amount of misture is often present in whites, even if it is not acknowledged- research has pointed to approx. 10,000 Black Americans "passing" into White America per YEAR in the 1920's and 30's. You don't know wether someone in your family was Italian like they said, or a light skinned black person, making you mixed to some degree.

Historically, attempts to establish a standard of black scientifically has been for the purposes of showing the supremacy of whites.

I won't say that you are doing that though because I don't know you.

I agree with everything you said. You're right, there is no scientific basis for race, i wish more people could understand something like that.

Unfortunately, it's the persons skin color, family background, etc., that racism exists on. People look at you and determine you're race by what you look like. I'm not arguing that you can classify people into simple categories of races, of course you can't. The argument is that because of their biological makeup, i.e. the physical attributes of an individual, racism is rampant on that level.

I think I confused the quote i was reply to in that thread, and read racism instead of race. My bad, I didn't mean to confuse the two, but I kept jumping back and forth between the word and it's root and started to make a bad argument.

Race, in my opinion, is not an absolute thing. Yes, it is quite impossible to find a specific race for anyone, in the end, we are all different down to our genes. However, simple things off a checklist, such as skin color, background, and limited characteristics, we can find that many people can become grouped into a certain race whether they like it or not. That's my reasoning for race classification on the biological scale. I don't agree with it either, but it's just the way things are. Race is more than just a social construct.

RUgreek

People of different "races" have more in common geneniticly than people of the same race. After all, we're all human. We can produce viable offsrping.

Quote:

Originally posted by RUgreek

I agree with everything you said. You're right, there is no scientific basis for race, i wish more people could understand something like that.

Unfortunately, it's the persons skin color, family background, etc., that racism exists on. People look at you and determine you're race by what you look like. I'm not arguing that you can classify people into simple categories of races, of course you can't. The argument is that because of their biological makeup, i.e. the physical attributes of an individual, racism is rampant on that level.

I think I confused the quote i was reply to in that thread, and read racism instead of race. My bad, I didn't mean to confuse the two, but I kept jumping back and forth between the word and it's root and started to make a bad argument.

Race, in my opinion, is not an absolute thing. Yes, it is quite impossible to find a specific race for anyone, in the end, we are all different down to our genes. However, simple things off a checklist, such as skin color, background, and limited characteristics, we can find that many people can become grouped into a certain race whether they like it or not. That's my reasoning for race classification on the biological scale. I don't agree with it either, but it's just the way things are. Race is more than just a social construct.

RUgreek

WOO! I hope you have eyes in the back of your head because you are back-pedaling mighty fast!

On the issue of the "n-word" all I am saying is that whether or not it is racist, reclaimed, offensive, or anything, you should not concern yourself over it. Why do you care? Do you want to say that word? If not, then why bother about it?

RUGreek...

What exactly is the "Black Community"?

Each person within said group would have a different response to the same word. Again (and I'm beating the hell out of this dead horse, I know!) it's another semantics thing (isn't everything?).

If I (whiteguy) was to utter the word to some of my black friends then probably nothing would come of it... no biggie. But if I'm behind the counter working retail or waiting tables and I called a black customer that???? God help me!

Perception is key here.. If the word is used in a manner meant to demean or offend than it is bad (I think). BUT! If it's used as a term of endearment, crude as it is.. why the hell not?

On a side note I actually call many of my friends "Cracka"...

Quote:

Originally posted by librasoul22

WOO! I hope you have eyes in the back of your head because you are back-pedaling mighty fast!

What does that mean? I don't think the elevator reaches the top floor for ya. Your turn!

Quote:

On the issue of the "n-word" all I am saying is that whether or not it is racist, reclaimed, offensive, or anything, you should not concern yourself over it. Why do you care? Do you want to say that word? If not, then why bother about it?

That's my point, on the issue of racism, it's only something white people can commit, on the issue of the n-word it's something that only black people can say.

You don't see a problem with any of these one-sided beliefs?

RUgreek

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
RUGreek...

What exactly is the "Black Community"?

well my definition is just african-american. But everyone else here gets all bent and tries to point to "well this and that is black, what about half black, and 3/4 orange" and eventually in their mind it's all black, white, and redish-purple.

When you fill out an application for college or whatever, the list goes like caucasian, latino, black or african american, asian, etc. It's what a person looks like, i'm just saying what it is, not trying to be an ass.

RUgreek

Quote:

Originally posted by RUgreek

What does that mean? I don't think the elevator reaches the top floor for ya. Your turn!

I was referring to the way that you have completely reversed your original argument. You went from "RACE IS BIOLOGICAL! THE DICTIONARY IS RIGHT!" to your current stance, which is something totally different (and you claim you have been saying it all along). You totally backtracked, it was not a personal attack.

Quote:

I think we have agreed that AS THE DEFINITION STANDS...racism can be committed by anyone. However, you have argued that race is a natural phenomenon, something biological. I, and others, are arguing that race is a social construct, making the whole point rather moot. If the concept of "race" was created by those in power to classify and oppress accordingly, how can the victims of that opppression be guilty? NOT INDIVIDUALS within the minority, mind you, but the oppressed people AS A WHOLE.

The issue of racism and the usage of an inflammatory term are two totally different things...apples and oranges. They cannot be compared.

You have a way of throwing out blanket statements about the "black community" and then getting defensive when people call you on it. Here is something for you to get defensive about:

Quote:

...eventually in their mind it's all black, white, and redish-purple.

Now. How on EARTH you can possibly tell me what is in anyone else's mind?! This is your problem. You have accused everyone else of making assumptions and throughout this whole thread you have done nothing but.

My point is, PRECISELY: When you go to fill out a college application, or whatever...the little boxes you check have NO OTHER PURPOSE than to classify you. And when you are in the minority in this country, that is very dangerous. Please mention Affirmative Action in your next post! LOL!

Not exactly the best comment there for promoting racial harmony:D

Quote:

Originally posted by librasoul22

I was referring to the way that you have completely reversed your original argument. You went from "RACE IS BIOLOGICAL! THE DICTIONARY IS RIGHT!" to your current stance, which is something totally different (and you claim you have been saying it all along). You totally backtracked, it was not a personal attack.

Apparently sarcasm missed you by a week. Don't get your panties in a bunch, this is just a discussion, right?

Now, I haven't backtracked, backpedaled, or reversed any stance. I never said the dictionary is right, so don't put words into my mouth. Race is biological, that position hasn't changed, I just accept your argument that it's social too. Unfortunately, you can't see clearly that both sides are correct, depending on how you perceive it. What I did say was my argument got confused because I started mixing up race def. with racism. So relax, ok?

Quote:

I think we have agreed that AS THE DEFINITION STANDS...racism can be committed by anyone.

Well it's about g-d damn time someone said it. Congratulations, you're the first! And finally, I can leave this ridiculous post, cause it's the only thing I cared about getting across here. Sheesh!

Quote:

However, you have argued that race is a natural phenomenon, something biological. I, and others, are arguing that race is a social construct, making the whole point rather moot. If the concept of "race" was created by those in power to classify and oppress accordingly, how can the victims of that opppression be guilty? NOT INDIVIDUALS within the minority, mind you, but the oppressed people AS A WHOLE.

This is fine. I accept the point that it is a social construct. I completely agreed (as before) with you on this. However, my side is also that it's biological. You don't have to like it, just accept that it exists.

Quote:

The issue of racism and the usage of an inflammatory term are two totally different things...apples and oranges. They cannot be compared.

I disagree, it all centers around the same problem. These terms and their usage exist the way they do because of racism. This is completely related. Otherwise, why get so bent over a different race's usage of them? Yes, I understand it's about opression and reclamation, but that's still racism.

Quote:

I don't make any assumptions, I just tell it like it is. My definition of the black community is what you see on an application asking about someone's racial background. I'm not telling anyone here what's going on in their minds, don't take my words so literally. I think the only problem here is you get upset. Some people see things conservatively "A is black, B is white" while others may view it other ways "A is black + white - green * red / brown" All I am telling you with regards to anyone else's mind, is that race has different meanings, different classifications.

Quote:

My point is, PRECISELY: When you go to fill out a college application, or whatever...the little boxes you check have NO OTHER PURPOSE than to classify you. And when you are in the minority in this country, that is very dangerous. Please mention Affirmative Action in your next post! LOL!

Affirmative Action.

And for your information, those check boxes are for statistical purposes, to see the number of X that apply, go to the school, etc. Yea they classify you, how else are they going to figure out if action needs to be taken to balance those numbers? If you like, you may take a look at FERPA yourself. And of course, those questions are optional, so nobody is required to answer them.

RUgreek

losing ALL MY PATIENCE

Wow.

I am not trying to start drama or anything:p but RUGReek that whooooole statement was some serious reconceptualization of the past on your part. Were you reading the same message board that I was?

You are the one who INSISTED that standard definitions were the only ones that counted for the LONGEST time until ktsnake, librasoul22 and myself called you on it. Don't lie because everybody read it. You are the one who said that only standard definitions count. That was wrong. Anyone who has studied language or linguistics in the slightest can tell you, and I believe that we have, repeatedly.

You CAN"T SAY that race is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT and at the same time BIOLOGICAL. Do you know what social construct means? do you know what calling it that means? It means that it is something defined by society and with no SCIENTIFIC (read: BIOLOGICAL basis). You can't try and PRETEND to agree with me and hold to your original and WRONG interpretation of the word.

You want to say it's biological then fine. Accept that you live in a fantasy world. Can you tell intelligence by the size of foreheads too? Sounds like perfectly sound EIGHTEENTH CENTURY SCIENCE to me.

And let me just say this and get it off my chest:You obviously know NOTHING (not the word I wanted to use there, but I am trying to be SOMEWHAT polite, lol) about the black community, WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU THINK IT IS COMPRISED OF. Until you either do some serious research on the topic, or are willing to listen to other viewpoints on the matter (ha,ha) SHUT THE HELL UP AND SIT DOWN.

Not the most politic thing in the world to say, but I had to get it off my chest :D

And the SCORES of people on GC who won't like what I just said can kiss my grits. Sometimes you just have to call it like you see it, even when it gets personal.

I am not totally intolerant of other views, but really when you have no logical basis for them, and can't tell me anything but your personal anecdotal evidence, I lose all respect for what you post. Mad people feel the same way about you and JUST DON'T SAY IT- and I DON'T just mean black people. I will be the one to say it if I have to. I am willing to take the heat for it.

Bring it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dionysus
http://plaudersmilies.de/screams.gifCan't we all just get alone???????http://plaudersmilies.de/screams.gif

I will just asssume you meant along.

And no we can't! Hellooooo! No!

Are you threatening me?! lol!

Quote:

Originally posted by lovelyivy84
Wow.

I am not trying to start drama or anything:p but RUGReek that whooooole statement was some serious reconceptualization of the past on your part. Were you reading the same message board that I was?

You are the one who INSISTED that standard definitions were the only ones that counted for the LONGEST time until ktsnake, librasoul22 and myself called you on it. Don't lie because everybody read it. You are the one who said that only standard definitions count. That was wrong. Anyone who has studied language or linguistics in the slightest can tell you, and I believe that we have, repeatedly.

Relax drama queen, you need not loose any patience. What exactly did anyone hear "call" me on? I discuss my points, they discuss theirs, and we reach a compromise in between. That's what a discussion is all about. How am I lying, we are trying to reach a understanding and learn from what each person says. You apparently only see what you think and get mad when others don't follow you. I don't lie, all my posts are exactly the way I wrote them, so what am I hiding? :D I never said "only standard definitions count" again you enjoy making simple statements out of my complicated explanations. I said, in a simple sense, this is what the definition stands for racism, discuss. I'm sorry if this discussion is offending you too much, I apologize for confusing you.

Quote:

You CAN"T SAY that race is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT and at the same time BIOLOGICAL. Do you know what social construct means? do you know what calling it that means? It means that it is something defined by society and with no SCIENTIFIC (read: BIOLOGICAL basis). You can't try and PRETEND to agree with me and hold to your original and WRONG interpretation of the word.

Actually, I can say whatever I wish, you just don't have to agree with it, ok? Yes, one definition of racism is a social one, the other is biological, why is it so hard for you to accept that? Just because my definition fits how the rest of society looks at racism, don't get so upset. Just learn to accept that not everyone thinks your one-sided views are the one and only correct definitions. I think you're ego is forcing you to be close-minded.

Quote:

You want to say it's biological then fine. Accept that you live in a fantasy world. Can you tell intelligence by the size of foreheads too? Sounds like perfectly sound EIGHTEENTH CENTURY SCIENCE to me.

Bad form ref. I live in the realist world, you want the idealistic. What exactly is the point of that statement, you just whining at me or trying to sound smart? :confused:

Quote:

And let me just say this and get it off my chest:You obviously know NOTHING (not the word I wanted to use there, but I am trying to be SOMEWHAT polite, lol) about the black community, WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU THINK IT IS COMPRISED OF. Until you either do some serious research on the topic, or are willing to listen to other viewpoints on the matter (ha,ha) SHUT THE HELL UP AND SIT DOWN.

Hmm, ok. That's a pretty big assumption, good job. I probably know more or I may not. This isn't a pissing contest for me to show that I am almighty, but you can rant and rave all you wish, doesn't change me and what I know.

Quote:

Not the most politic thing in the world to say, but I had to get it off my chest :D

It's alright, I'm sure others think I deserve it.

Quote:

And the SCORES of people on GC who won't like what I just said can kiss my grits. Sometimes you just have to call it like you see it, even when it gets personal.

You don't need to take this personal, it really wasn't until you made it such.

Quote:

I am not totally intolerant of other views, but really when you have no logical basis for them, and can't tell me anything but your personal anecdotal evidence, I lose all respect for what you post. Mad people feel the same way about you and JUST DON'T SAY IT- and I DON'T just mean black people. I will be the one to say it if I have to. I am willing to take the heat for it.

What? you got a gang now against me. Yay, preach on, I thought this is suppose to be a discussion, not a hate mongering session? Listen, stop patting yourself on the back and pay attention for sec. I'm not trying to gain any respect here, I'm trying to bring my points across. First, racism can be committed by non-white races. Point accepted and made, therefore we move on. Two, racism can be defined not only as a social construct (your view) but also as a biological one (my side). It's PERFECTLY fine with me that you do not like nor wish to accept my side, but it's very sad to me that you can't even ACKNOWLEDGE it. Why, does closing your eyes and saying "I'm invisible" make it so? Open your eyes, and then eventually your mind will follow.

Oh, and to all those GCers out there, I'm sorry but that had to be said, so you can kiss her grits some more if it pleases you. I'm from the north east, we don't have grits here, sorry.

Quote:

Bring it.

How old are you, 16? No, wait, I do know this one "It's already been broughten :cool:." Here I got one too:

"Whateva whateva, I do what I want!"

RUgreek