Don't believe the hype. I am going to guess that many are in 'awe' not because they think the chapter is strong, but because of things like you have a house, your school has a name they know, you may have a larger membership. It probably has little to do with the quality of your membership, and even if it did, how would they know unless they had visited your chapter specifically?

In my own group I see this phenomenon all the time--it almost seems as if women from chapters with houses have an aura about them, either real or created. I will say that in my experience they are not always the strongest chapters.

Macallen25--once again, I have not said anything about hazing always being a dangerous activity. I have repeatedly said, usually after you post accusing me accordingly, that I do not believe that hazing is always dangerous. I believe that there are more positive ways to accomplish unity and bonding than through hazing. For every activity that you offer, I could probably come up with a different, legal, or more acceptable way to accomplish the same goal. That is my central point--has been throughout this thread. I, too, am a long-time international volunteer and that colors my perspective. I believe my beliefs are consistent with what officers in many national organizations would believe. Like it or not, there are rules that prohibit hazing, including the activities that you have subscribed to in your posts. I think many of us post because we would hate to see your chapter get in trouble, lose the charter, or simply contribute to a poor reputation for all GLOs and we want to encourage younger members to think about the consequences, not just the dangers.

Some guy dies from overexertion due to a previously unknown medical problem with his heart, and you will care, your parents will care, your international organization will care, because you'll all be financially ruined.

You are arguing quality?

The richest houses, with the most social activities, with the strongest reputation of being the top tier have always been in the south. I could name off the top houses in the nation, all in the south.

Phi Gam at UT-Austin, KA at Bama, The Fabulous Xi Chapter of Kappa Sig at Arkansas or LSU, SAE at Auburn, Sigma Chi at LSU and Arkansas (maybe.), Pike at.... well I guess Florida State if they are actually good anywhere, it is the biggest fraternity house in the nation. Beta's better than normal at Florida. Apparently they're better than average at Baylor too. I could probably go on and on.

You're equating quality with money?

I would think The activity would have to be taken into account.

I think our respective HQ's recognize that, that's why we have all of this new national programming stuff, e.g., Sigma Nu's LEAD, Sig Ep's "Balanced Man," etc. I gather that our HQ's are trying to give us an option. Whether or not it's a superior option is up to each chapter. Of course, if they're caught hazing, the HQ's have to deal with them pretty harshly.

Unfortunately the courts and the press aren't that forgiving....

Balanced Man and True Gentlemen are the worst programs ever.

Interesting evaluations. After I read that, I wondered if there happen to be any "top houses," in your estimation, at any private universities? Or maybe at any universities that are in the top 50 of U.S. News and World Report's 2006 listing of "America's Best Colleges and Universities"? I see that U. of Texas - Austin is #52 for U.S. News, Baylor is #78, Auburn is #85, Bama is #104, Florida State is #109, and then LSU and Arkansas are simply ranked as "third tier."

Now I have nothing against major state universities. Students can get excellent educations there. But I'm just wondering -- does it seem that students going to some private universities (or some very competitive public ones) are at a disadvantage if they want to be in a truly "top house"?

If so, I guess it's too bad -- all that work to get high SATs or have outstanding talents, to have lots of activities, to do well in interviews, and (at privates) to be prepared to pay tuition, fees, room and board ranging from the mid - $30,000 area to well over $40,000 -- and still not even have a chance at being in a "top house."
I guess it's a choice some students and their families have to make. Just hope they know what they're doing.

Why?

are you joking?

You are making an argument out of an unknown situation....you can't just say, "oh, well, if a kid dies of heart failure from overexertion then you and all of your brothers are going to be sued and lose all of your money." I assume both of you are talking about law suits. Its really idiotic to even say something like that and not take into account the situation, setting, parents feelings, etc.

Well sure. Though I do believe schools like Washington and Lee which has an excellent greek system but has no top houses, is a private school. I would seriously consider Kappa at W&L one of the best in the nation. It is impossible to have top fraternity at private schools because of several factors. Money, Time, Social "Prowess" if you will. The only top house that I could possibly see coming out of a private fraternity would be DKE at Yale. However, DKE at Bama is one of the top DKE houses in the nation. It's disputed obviously.

UT is a very competitive public university and is considered a "public ivy." I wouldn't put it in a list of normal public schools. It is extremely competitive and equally hard to get into...and also is ranked in the top 20 in just about every graduate school category public or private.

To answer your question though......yeah, I think it would put you at a disadvantage....allthough there are very good chapters at private schools as well.

I am an SAE and I honestly don't know of very many chapters that really go by the TG Initiative.