I can see how your chapter threatening to take you to standards becaue you wanted to be a rho gamma unified your chapter and brought it closer.

^^^Yes, I'm surprised to hear her chapter hazed "the pretty one".

well im not going to standards and that is not hazing at all that is chapter operations like the title of this thread so dont worry you two!!:p

OK, maybe it was because my chapter only had 55 members active at a time, but I find it strange that you wouldn't know all of your chapter members. How did you vote on new members to begin with? Call me old fashioned, but I made it a point of knowing every new member's name-no matter how many pledge classes were behind me. I may not have known their cat's name, or their favorite bedtime story as a kid, but I knew their name and a little about every sister. That is what creates unity. Talking, not...

55 is huge based on my standards. But I guess you could at least recognize 55 people when you see them and know their names. I don't know if I could do it but that was never an option for us.

In some groups, only the people who have actually met the person vote on him/her. I don't think anyone is going to tell you much more than that on here. How large are the groups at the school you're talking about?

I just looked it up. The chapters range between 40-60 members for the GLOs on campus.

I'm just going to go with the "this guy isn't the brightest crayon in the box" theory. I don't think a memory lapse is an indicator of the efficacy of a pledge program or chapter unity.

I do know all of my chapter members. A pledge isn't a member and I don't see why it's a huge deal to not know some of the pledges on a name/face basis at the beginning of their pledge period. I can easily get a sense of what kind of guy some kid is right off the bat without knowing his name. I'll learn them eventually.

I think the claim "hazing creates unity" applies to unity within the pledge class, and I'd like to add to that, isolation from the chapter. That would explain why the president didn't know the pledge.

Hazing does create isolation from the chapter. That's fine, because despite what most here would have you believe, the pledges are not part of the chapter. I've seen what happens when pledge groups think they are on the same level as actives, and let me tell you, these chapters tend to not have strong brotherhood, in any sense of the word. I think 97% of this board still believes hazing means physically beating pledges or making them drink till they're black out drunk. Yes, that is bad and it does nothing but harm for the pledges, the actives, and Greek life as a whole. Going through a few hardships as a group never hurt anyone.

When I said that hazing unites a pledge class at the expense of isolation from the chapter, I meant that the isolation continues after initiation. Chapters that haze are not "chapters", just a series of isolated pledge classes.

And you know this first hand?

Because I sure do have tons of evidence that proves otherwise.

Sure, friends in other chapters at my school who have told me that their chapters haze say they feel resentful towards the older actives after initiation, and end up being close only to other members of their pledge class.

I would love to hear how you think hazing unifies a chapter.

Well first of all, let's define hazing (for lack of a better word).

I am talking, for example, about having pledges clean up the house early on a Saturday morning in a very short (but not impossible) amount of time. What's the catch? There isn't one. They're not drunk, no one is hitting them, and they don't have to use their toothbrushes. Hell, they don't have HAVE to do it at all, but they understand they will be cut if they don't. Pledging is optional, remember? The thing is, this "hazing" is purposeful and the pledges know that.

No one is in danger and no one is being degraded. If a pledge has a problem with some simple cleaning, then that's not the only problem he has, and he's not someone my chapter wants to be affiliated with. Believe it or not, there will be other times in life when you CHOOSE to do things you don't want to do because you are attracted to the reward. You probably don't want to study for your biology exam, but you want to get into med school, so you study hard and do well. There is no such thing as free lunch, because if there were such a thing, none of us would be in school. The pledge process is not unlike school. You (should have to) work hard to get where you want to be (whether that is being an active member of your GLO or having the job of your dreams).

Now, if you class my example with being beaten half to death with a paddle, then I really do not know what to tell you. If your friends feel resentful towards certain actives, they probably did a lot more than made the pledges clean and I'm just as much against that as the rest of you guys are.

While many if not all agree with you on G C, the National HQs will disagree along with the many states who have enacted laws against hazing brought on by some of the things that you mentioned and still go on today.

Starting a local many years ago, we never thought cleaning common areas of the house and line ups were hazing and that is all we did.

Today that has all changed. We did it on and by ourselves.

I am well aware that nationals would consider that hazing...

Sasquatch;
While I can see that you are a new member of GC (welcome), I do not know how long you may have be lurking or reviewing threads.

I also see that just about all of your postings have been in RM area. I do hope that you took some time to read the threads here.

One of the major flash points we have here is when "we" define hazing.
And from my POV and experience, that in truth makes no difference in the world we live in and operate in.
Why?
Because as GLO's, and for that matter any living or social group on a given campus, have to live and operate under the rules given to us. That is any combination of school, local, State, Federal, and Organizational rules, policies and laws.

And as one can see either by reading the threads here or reading the papers, we get into trouble when we decide what we wish to follow or how we are going to interpret them.

And as we have seen all too often, not all of the "rules" are very well written and are different all over the place.

And your evidence is?
And can we find proof in it?

Hazing actually does unify a lot of chapters because the actives have to spend a substantial amount of time with the new members for most of the activities. It also makes many new members anxious to be able to mingle with the actives after they complete their rites of passage.

This isn't an either/or discussion. Despite the legal definition of hazing that tries to cover it all, we all know that there are a range of new member activities and processes that fall under hazing. And not everyone who opposes hazing will oppose every activity that falls under "hazing." Some are laughable.

Hazing divides some chapters and hazing divides some new member classes. Hazing unites many chapters and hazing unites many member classes. This will be based on the people and activities involved, as well as how both sides behave and feel about the other side and the "hazing" activities.

The evidence of this would be a matter of witnessing various chapters' activities and experiences. There will always be variance because there are thousands upon thousands of fraternity and sorority chapters in the world.

A most outstanding post and thank you!

It speaks a lot of truths about while in the guise of hazing, it really isn't.

The explanation of working with the new associates or pledges is the main key here, not just physical or mental hazing.

This should be the first post in every singe thread here on out created bout hazing.

Then said threads should be closed.

Yeah these threads are redundant from start to finish.

If I had to pick, it would be the latter. I think that because of all of the no hazing policies by GHQ, and by the campus that you are at makes it an unfavorable practice.

Second to that I have been told hazing comes from post WWII and the marines and soldiers coming back on the GI Bill, so I think its starting to take root in the new milenium that it is just an archaic practice.

That certainly contributed to a new rise in hazing, but hazing has been around a lot longer than that.

I beleive hazing was in practice from the inseption of GLOs and is not based on the men/women who returned from WWII. They had seen enough hurt/blood shed and I am sure were not up to having to be hazed by a group of kids who did not fight in this war.

I know that at the two schools I attended, the men on GI Bill help build dorms at one school and the stadium at the other one. Doesn't sound like hazing would come from them.

When West Point was founded, the new plebes had to ride cannon barrels with a team of horses running with the cassions.

Beating, making a new member drink in excess is a way to make a stronger member of any GLO would steer me away from them.

I do not think I would find any glee in those or any other forms of degredation appealing.

I doubt that.

Go to your next convention and ask one of the grey-hairs that question. I don't know one way or the other, but I would have to assume that hazing has been around a long, long time.

My fraternity was founded in 1869, essentially in response to (and against) the hazing and other morally objectionable practices which were being perpetrated by the forerunner organization of ATO. Hazing was alive and well in 1869. It has deep roots in the american educational system. I have no reason to believe it slackened off on its own between 1869 and WWII.

.

Interesting first post. Anyway, why not PLEDGE instead of haze?

And what organization are you a member of?

I think it's funny how your post promotes hazing and you say that it works, yet you can't even type "shitty" in its full form. If you're gonna cuss, you may as well spell it out.

SHITTY.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the "brotherhood" that has had the biggest impact on my life came from casual interactions with brothers, not getting my ass beat. If you can't bond with your brothers (pledge brothers or otherwise) without the aid of hazing, you're not trying hard enough.

LOL. I concur. Shitty. Shitty. Shitty.

Given his screen name, I think Beta, with its official colors of "delicate shades of pink and blue," is a pretty safe bet.

Honestly, with my interactions with my friends who pledged various GLOs in various parts of the country I would say:

Sororities - Never works. Girls just do not bond over being hazed at all. Creates a lot of insecurity, cliques, drama and unhappiness.
Fraternities - Works in some cases. It really depends on the type of guys they attract. I think that my guy friends who are in more "Alpha Male" type chapters bonded, are extremely loyal to their house and have no regrets whatsoever. They liken it to the type of bonding that goes down in football "two-a-days". For fraternities with an artsier crowd it doesn't seem to work very well and a lot of resentment builds.

This is an intersetesting conversation of what and why's.

My Chapter was big and we thought we were above everything. We/my chapter figured they were to strong. Well, SWMO, now Missouri State University does not have my chapter. It was because of drugs and being stupid with hazing. I have no clue when we may come back if ever?

I went through society pledging which slightly differs from greek pledging, but they did haze us to some extremes. Part of some rituals entailed being called out and pledged in front of your pledge class taking punishiment for their actions. That i would say did bring us closer as a pledge class, but isolated us from the rest of the club and the student body.

But it did make for stronger bonds

stronger bonds or rears that hurt like hell? if you keep up with the hazings across the country, many glos have had their chapters removed from many campuses and state laws passed. how good is that?

Secret societies don't have national offices which pull charters. The only real recourse is either through criminal prosecution or through the university's disciplinary process -- both of which are very rarely used in hazing cases involving non-greek organizations.