Jon, when I say things like "before somebody stupid says something, I'm not saying..." that means not to ask the stupid question I mentioned.

Again you are (disclaimer: allegedly) dead wrong about your assumptions with said chapter. What chapters tell their nationals and their advisors, and uptight alumni is night/day from what really happens. Hazing has a direct correlation with how strong a chapter is (fraternities only). Spare me your PC sugar coated BS, I see this stuff first hand from the perspective of an active, not some out of touch GHQ, alumni, advisor, etc.

To alter the original question a little bit, I wonder if HQs would want to know if chapters are valuing something (i.e. hazing) as the connective tissue between brothers instead of the ritual. While neither shiner, bows, nor elephant have confirmed that their chapters value hazing in that manner, they have implied it. If that's actually the case, I think it's very unfortunate and unfair to the new brothers. Not just from a hazing POV, but from a ritual-valuing POV as well.

Perhaps I'm being overly ritual-sensitive; I'm a ritual-hugger so to speak. I LOVE my ritual and what it stands for. But, more than that, I love the fact that it is that ritual which binds me to KDs everywhere; it has for the past 100+ years, and it hopefully will continue for another 100+ years. I'd feel like I missed out on something if my chapter had valued the pledging process/hazing as the tie that binds me to my sisters, because it is our ritual that serves that purpose.

Am I being naive here? I thought one of the purposes behind having an HQ was to ensure that new brothers/sisters are connected, regardless of the chapter, by a common thread. After all, it is HQ that supplies ritual equipment to each chapter. I imagine one of the reasons for that is to make sure that all chapters experience a very similar bonding experience -- RITUAL.

I'm sorry to go off like this, but I think HQs would definitely want to know if this is going on. Again, not just because it involves hazing, but mostly because it places something chapter-specific above the ritual (which is supposed to be organization-specific). Does that make any sense?

Even if you don't haze, I think it's a little naive to say you'll have the same bonds with your brothers or sisters everywhere simply because you share the same ritual. Unless you work at a national level or get very involved with an alum chapter, the bonds made in your collegiate chapter will most likely be the strongest. Before I get 800 posts chiming in, I know there are exceptions to this. But for the TYPICAL fraternity or sorority member, that's how it is.

I mean, I would probably have more in common with someone else who went to Clarion or is from Pittsburgh than I would with my sisters from other parts of the country. That doesn't mean it isn't neat to meet sisters and know that we share things, but I don't think it trumps any other kind of friendship.

I actually agree w/ 33 about something. Most rituals, although often extensive in practice, are quite simple in theory. I mean, its basically like saying "hey we're all Americans." I mean, we'll support each other against outsiders and try to help each other, but we don't all share close ties or like each other.

I hear you, 33. I'm not saying that I would feel as connected to a sister from another chapter as I do to someone in my own... I don't mean to suggest that ritual "trumps" other kind of friendship. But I think it is the ritual that is supposed to create that special bond between brothers/sisters, not hazing. I get the feeling that some of the chapters that are admitting to hazing see that as the bonding experience that matters, and not the new brothers' ritual experience as the important one.

My "bonding" experiences when I think of them are things like watching Days of Our Lives together, mixers, sucking at philanthropy bowling, bid nights, stuff like that. To be quite honest, ritual was a very small part of it.

Its hard to discuss this without revealing too much, but I was always under the impression that most rituals really boiled down to a couple of vague principles.

Our bonding comes through things you do in pledgeship, away game road trips, spring breaks, formals, hurricane parties, fraternity fights, nights at the bar, etc.

Absolutely correct!

Which is the same bond the Southern chapters feel with each other, at least to some extent. Rituals cool and all, but our chapter and it's own history is what unites us, not our nationals. They're just some relatively useless (except for insurance and such) umbrella organization. It seems that new row chapters are more connected to the nationals than the ones who have a quite extensive history as a chapter itself. It's still decently cool to meet one of our own somewhere that is outside of the campus context, but I would much rather hang out with those who share my values and tastes in the arts and so on.

Yeah, I mean when we went to convention, we were going to the bars with the Ole Miss and UGA guys. If there were two national fraternities having convention in the same place, it wouldnt surprise me to see the two auburn chapters hanging out together at the bar instead of their respective national fraternities.

I can't believe shinerbock and 33 just had about identical posts.:eek:

I actually do agree with him on some things when he has the asshat turned down to 2 or so. :)

I think where Sydney is going is the point that seemed to come across (not saying this is what you said, but this is kinda how it came across) that "if he didn't get hazed, and more importantly if he didn't get hazed in the way I'm accustomed to, he isn't a brother of mine." It's like the old "pledging vs paper" debate that the NPHC groups have.

I know that the sisters that are joining my group now have a pledge process that's VASTLY different from mine. I'm sure mine was vastly different from some of the women who pledged the same time as me at different schools. What matters to me is how I get along with them, and more importantly, what they give. Just because I can't require you to learn history doesn't mean you can't go ahead and do it anyway. If you do the least amount of anything possible, it doesn't matter how or when or where you joined, the respect you receive from me will be nil. That doesn't mean hazing. That means you do things like showing up at the house just to hang out (not only when you have to come there for meetings), helping with rush nametags when you didn't sign your name on a sheet to do it, etc etc. That goes on throughout your whole Greek career, not just pledgeship.

Yes, I agree completely. (This is one of the reasons I've always liked Tri Sigma's open motto - at least, I think it's their motto - "To receive much, you must give much").

I am blessed to come from a chapter where, for the most part, sisters were extremely giving of their time, talents, shoulders, etc.

I understand what you and Shiner are saying about bonding experiences. I feel similarly. When I think of "bonding" activities, I think of activities that I participated in with my friends. But, when I think of what makes that group of friends my SISTERS, it's our ritual.

I think I'm just having a hard time getting my feelings into words. Yes, you do a great deal of bonding with those in your chapter. But, your chapter is bound to each other through its ritual, not through hazing or a pledging process. I just feel like ritual is glossed over by some of the comments others have made. And, I guess that's what I feel like HQs would want to know about.

I think what you're trying to say is "ritual made us sisters, hearts made us friends." LOL

I don't know - I mean, you should be performing the ritual properly, but other than that I don't know how you can make people feel something more because of it. That just isn't how we (NIC & NPC) rush. You (for the most part) join the chapter, not the national, and the bond with the national comes later. Now if you asked the NPHC groups, I think they'd be much more agreeing of what you were talking about.

Well, I'm sure our HQ would like to hear about it, but hopefully they won't. Nobody really enjoys talking to them anyhow.