You're right. The point is that FIPG or whomever considers them a liability risk and so a chapter probably would not be covered in the case of an accident like those described above.

In terms of "stealing" items, I think you have pointed out in the past that illegal acts are never covered.

It's likely another case where a seemingly harmless activity has been taken to extremes sometime(s) in the past and the reaction has been to defensively ban everything.

I agree, sadly. I think that until you go to a Convention or Leadership Conference type activity with many chapters present, or become alum and get involved with members from other chapters, you don't really comprehend the organization as a whole. You tend to think about your chapter and it's point of view, but you don't see the big picture. That your actions could be responsible for the loss of your entire organization, affecting tens of thousands of members permanently is an idea that's lost. The other problem with the argument for that age group is the "It won't happen to me" mentality that persists until the mid-twenties.

Driving 3 hours in the middle of the night to get food from a particular restaurant could be a lot of fun, unless the driver gets drowsy and crashes the car, killing everybody in it. Every Spring Break we hear about at least one car of college students getting into a fatal accident while driving home after a week of no sleep and tons of partying. But, developmentally, at that age, there remains the thought "It won't happen to me". One of the biggest frustrations is trying to figure out how to get past that and make them see "It could".

Interestingly, the last time I did the Alpha Gam program "Get Real: Thinking About Drinking" at a chapter, I got feedback I didn't expect. The program focuses on drinking attitudes rather than a lot of facts and figures. The developers figure that college students are bombarded with facts about alcohol, so this program consists of interactive activities designed to challenge the way members think about drinking instead. Some of the evaluation cards afterward said that there should have been more "scare stories" about people who died or were injured as a result of drinking. That really surprised me because I don't think those kinds of stories work, because of the "it won't happen to me" factor.

Also, for anybody who thinks their GLO isn't a business, I urge you to stay involved as an alumnus, especially as you climb up the "ladder" and see what you think then.

AGDee, I see what you are saying, and basically, we are in agreement. However, I think from a national perspective, maybe the rules are too strict. I can see how the type of scavenger hunt you're talking about could be dangerous. However, a scavenger hunt limited to for example, a 1 square mile area? There's very minimal risk involved there. Probably a lot less risk than participating in some intramural sports.

To say that scavenger hunts are "always" immoral because of the risk you're unfairly placing on your brothers and sisters in other chapters is again painting with too broad a brush.

I think that's a big frustration that many undergrads have with their respective national entities. There is generally a lot of expectation as far as these guys/gals acting like adults, but there is very little trust.

I agree that our organizations are businesses, but let's not forget that we're in the business of brotherhood and sisterhood. Let's not allow the business aspect to frustrate what our purpose was in the first place.

Of course there have been lots of scavenger hunts which were run well and ended up being positive activities. Unfortunately, as DA mentioned, it's easier to say "no scavenger hunts" and, when reading a report, spot the word "Scavenger hunt" than it is to have each chapter send in every detail of such an activity and go over them with a fine tooth comb. Since becoming an Area Coordinator for Alpha Gam, I am so inundated with reports that it's unreal. I filled a four drawer file cabinet by early March and the reports are still coming in. I'm just a volunteer, a single mom, a full time employee. It's easiser to scan reports for key words than to read every detail of every activity that 24 chapters are doing!

And, one could argue, why are scavenger hunts so needed? Is it simply the temptation of the forbidden fruit? There are zillions of team building activities that our insurance companies are ok with.

I'm not the one who used the word immoral :)

I will admit, I see things very differently now, as a long time alumna and volunteer, than I did when I was a collegian. I think everybody, with age, looks back on some things they did when they younger (whether in a GLO or not) and think "I'm lucky I survived that". I feel it most as a parent, when I'm trying to keep my kids from doing something stupid or dangerous.

We hear the most about the chapters who screw up and the reality is, most chapters and most GLO members are really fantastic.

Isn't that the truth.

Even as an adult, I didn't think much about chapter liability until I became an alumni volunteer.

The scavenger hunt thing is pretty much like all hazing rules to me -- badly defined and totally over-reactive because somebody has taken things too far and lost control, resulting in injury or "criminal" behavior.

Granted being an Alum of a Greek Organization is a relative statement, being an Advisor brings the real truth as D A said along with AGDee.

Suddenly the Real Truth comes to the Fore.

Reports of Hazing are daily and that is the sad truth.

When We look at costs, as the more Mature Members as Alums, it does put a whole different light on the problem.

Greeks as far as Insurance is concerned are done as a Total. If one does it, ergo, they all do it and it is figured as such.:rolleyes: No Black and White in this situation.

I havent read this whole thread but just to address the title...

I realize why GLOs & schools have to renounce "hazing", its a liability thing. But hazing is a double-edged sword, without it, greek chapters go downhill...the quality of guy in a fraternity that doesnt haze compared to one that does is very evident. If you didnt have to work your ass off to EARN those letters, you will never respect it as you should, and you will most likely be a slapdick active that doesnt do anything. There is a reason the millitary trains to "break you down" then build you up, its the same concept.

By hazing I am NOT talking about making pledges drink, or any homosexual crap, not making them eat nasty stuff...etc. im talking good ole' fashioned military style line-ups, scavenger hunts, and other things that the pledge class has to work together to overcome some type of obstacle. THATS what builds unity.

Agree.

What builds unity is having respect for one another--not line ups and things of that nature.

I think that it's interesting that some of the hardest hazing military-line up style is in the south, where the strongest chapters are most certainly always are. Coincidence? Hell no.

This would greatly depend on your definition of a "strong chapter". I wouldn't consider any chapter that is engaging in high risk behavior as defined by our insurance companies as "strong".

I'm not sure why anyone would think that the "strongest" chapters are in the South -- unless, of course, they belong to a Southern chapter and believe their own public relations.

There are great chapters all over the country.

With all due respect, I read in another thread that you "got your pin" a month ago. It's interesting to me that someone who is reasonably new to the system knows so much more about the Greek System than others who have been around for a number of years and have been advisors and division or national officers.

Additionally, there is a huge difference between military hazing and fraternity hazing, including the alleged "need" for either. To make it real simple, if you don't learn whatever your chapter wants you to know, you probably won't die. (you'll note I don't say GLO, because they ALL have policies against hazing)

who gives a flying s**t what an insurance company thinks about a chapter.

"Things of that nature" are what leads many people to have that respect. Why do you think that everything we mention that we do is dangerous or detrimental or something negative. You and AGDee have a completely one-sided approach to this stuff and its rather ridiculous.

I base my claims that the strongest chapters are in the South because I have traveled to many differenct campuses across the country and have been to leadership schools for SAE in which representatives from all over the country come.....and I have listened to and heard exactly what people from the North and elsewhere think about us, and chapters from schools like Alabama, UGA, Ole Miss, etc. To be completely honest they were all pretty in awe.