GreekChat.com Forums - America's Next Top Model: Cycle 5

GreekChat.com Forums (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/index.php)

- Entertainment (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/forumdisplay.php?f=205)

- - America's Next Top Model: Cycle 5 (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=68650)

Quote:

Originally posted by DPiece7

Let's just call a spade a spade... ANTM needed to pick a white girl to keep their white viewers. .

Proof please.

Quote:

Originally posted by ASUADPi
Not everything in the world is about race, but when people start to bring the race card into the picture, it suddenly becomes this huge issue.

- My Response: Here's what I do not understand. Why is everyone so afraid to admit that race exists and plays a factor into one's perceptions. That admission does not make you a racist. It isn't unreasonable to think that someone might identify more with someone who resembles them or shares a similar culture or background as them. Just look at the Top Model and Making the Band threads. Before winners were selected on either show there were clear preferences in the various threads. Just as most of the black folks on GC favored the black contestants, most of the white folks on GC favored the white contestants. This does not make everyone racist. This is just says that people tend to identify with/see beauty in/root for those that are similar to themselves. THAT'S ALL, and THAT'S OK! What I think is very feasible is that the decision makers on ANTM, many of which are white (esp. on the Cover Girl and Ford side), may identify with Brittany. They may also feel that there audience will feel the same way. I don't doubt that in this sense race did play some factor in the decision. This doesn't mean that they are racist, so there is no need to bury our heads in the sand and pretend like the choice was made blindfolded or even just off of performance (b/c Brittany had her fair share of weeks where she was strugging - and not so many weeks where she was the shinning star).

What I think does disturb some African Americans is that b/c so many decisions are subjective and are made based upon how well you can relate to a person, then more often than not African Americans (and other minorities) get the short end of the stick. This is not just in film or the media, but also when applying for jobs, promotions, entrance in Law school or even in enforcement of criminal laws. It is because of this subjectiveness that many minorities fight for legislaton to correct this disparity, as you posted below. Everyone seems to focus on the 'theory' that someone less qualified than you may be selected over you. However as you are arguing your side, then please at least be honest enough to admit that in many many situations these laws actually come into play not in situations where there is a greater or lesser candidate, but when there are 2 equal candidates of different races and the determining factors are purely subjective (who woud be the greater asset? who has greater potential? who can i just 'see' here? who can i identify with? who reminds me more of my favorite niece or nephew?) No, I don't think that we need affirmative action for ANTM, but I wanted to address some of the anger at the outcome as well as the bottom portion of this post. Also, I do think that many of the comments on BOTH forums were ignorant and unnecessary.

On a side note: I think its this fear of acknowledging race or being labeled a racist that prevents us from seriously being able to discuss race relations in this country. The term race card is fairly condesending and implies that one is not bring forth a legitimate issue/complaint, but rather looking to take advantage of the situation. Until we are able to handle the issues discussed with the respect and consideration that they deserve (rather than immediatedly dismissing them as just another black person looking to get ahead by leveraging their blackness) then many of these issues will never be solved. Sometimes I wish that we could just have a nation-wide study (perhaps a Lunch n Learn) of the serious effects of several hundred years of slavery, the rape of the black woman, the emasculation of the black man, the destruction of the black family, and over 100 years of continued discrimination. These things have affected the way that the African American community as well as the African American self-image and self-worth have been shaped and exist today. Then maybe we could think twice b4 we dismiss someone as 'playing the race card'.

Marie - End My Response

And if we wanna pull the race card, how about the fact that some of the Law Schools applications I've received actually tell me that they will use "race" (especially people who are of Hispanic descent) as a "factor" in determing acceptance. So in reality someone with a worse gpa and LSAT score could beat me into law school because their Hispanic (or a minority). (And yes this actually was stated in a law school application, it was from a school in Texas, SMU I believe. I was actually shocked when I read it. IMPO, law school's shouldn't be using race as a determining factor in admissions or not. They should be strictly looking at gpa, lsat scores, letters of rec and personal statement).

Sorry for the mini hijack but if we are going to be arguing about the 'race card'. We should be questioning it over things such as acceptance into grad school and whatnot, not over the outcome of a tv show.

And remember that Nik had a 50/50 chance of winning. If it really was all about race Bre and Nik would have never made it to the final 3. We still would have seen Kim and Jayla. I personally believe that Nik had as good of a chance of winning as Nicole did. And not knowing the actual debate the judges had, it is hard for anyone to pinpoint exactly why they chose Nicole. I think either one would have made a great ANTM. In the end, I honestly think it came more down to personality. I say this because, Niama doesn't really have one, and Nik's really didn't shine through, not like Nicole's did at times. But again, not being a judge, it is hard to even hazard a guess, but I seriously doubt race was an issue.

Feel free to disagree with me :) Just my opinion. :)

Quote:

Originally posted by ASUADPi
Not everything in the world is about race, but when people start to bring the race card into the picture, it suddenly becomes this huge issue.

And if we wanna pull the race card, how about the fact that some of the Law Schools applications I've received actually tell me that they will use "race" (especially people who are of Hispanic descent) as a "factor" in determing acceptance. So in reality someone with a worse gpa and LSAT score could beat me into law school because their Hispanic (or a minority). (And yes this actually was stated in a law school application, it was from a school in Texas, SMU I believe. I was actually shocked when I read it. IMPO, law school's shouldn't be using race as a determining factor in admissions or not. They should be strictly looking at gpa, lsat scores, letters of rec and personal statement).

Sorry for the mini hijack but if we are going to be arguing about the 'race card'. We should be questioning it over things such as acceptance into grad school and whatnot, not over the outcome of a tv show.

That is just an example of how race does play a role in most things in our society. You're right! A Latina or Black person could get into school with a lower GPA, lower LSAT scores, etc than you have- because that is the least this society can do to make up for the fact that we attend the worst schools, live in the worst neighborhoods, and are not granted the same opportunities as most. If you disagree that many minorities are born into a disadvantaged position by the mere fact that their skin is darker, you are sadly mistaken. It doesnt surprise me that many of you feel this way... many of my white peers have the same attitude. I dont necessarily fault you because you havent been exposed to it. But to continue to remain ignorant after people who have EXPERIENCED this try to explain it to you is unacceptable.

We digress. The main discussion here is whether or not Nicole deserved to win. Black or white, I felt that Nicole was subpar. I PERSONALLY feel that producers felt compelled to choose a white winner so that they could keep a broad spectrum of viewers. I dont need evidence from UPN to know... its mad simple. We ALL know that producers manipulate the dynamics of a show to increase the amount of people watching. Look at Making of the Band, and how Denosh apparently was a "mole" placed on the show to create drama... and create drama she did. This is a similar situation, and the same situation that was going on with American Idol. In order to keep both white and black viewers, and to not have it become a "black" or "white" show, they have to switch it up. Plain and simple.

Marie..... while I don't necessarily agree or have an opinion on your post, I do have to say that I really respect it.

I think most people's anger in this thread having to do with the other thread are the racial comments made about whites... ex: the ones I quoted from the other thread. And, like you said, there are comments back and forth that are unnecessary. But the thing is why when someone of non-African American race makes a comment- and it could be the littlest thing- it's not ok? However there are ridiculous comments being made about white people and it's ok? Like I could say... and this is just an example: Wow she's really dark/light and I feel like I'd be called a racist for making that comment. Or if Diddy's band would have been 3 black girls and 2 white girls I could be like "oh Diddy blah blah fill in opposite of calling it a whitewash". Please don't respond with the argument and discussion of discrimination and such because I know that. But what bothers me is that respect goes both ways. How can "we" respect those African Americans making comments like that? And it's the same. How can those African Americans respect non-African Americans who are making comments? It's a sad double standard in the aspect of trying to respect and understand someone.

eta: Dpiece7... "This is a similar situation, and the same situation that was going on with American Idol. In order to keep both white and black viewers, and to not have it become a "black" or "white" show, they have to switch it up. Plain and simple."

I understand what you are saying now and I guess I do agree with that.

Quote:

Originally posted by DPiece7
Some of yall are really naive:rolleyes:

Let's just call a spade a spade... ANTM needed to pick a white girl to keep their white viewers. Really, Nicole should have been kicked off weeks beforehand, she should have never made it to the top three.

Wake up... most times, race is an issue.

I just think this is ridiculous. It's only a race issue because some people have made it one.

Apparantly some people need to walk around with a color stick, judging the world.
When I see people, whether it's a TV program or real life, I don't go around saying:
"this person did this/got this because they are white/black/hispanic/asian/middle eastern, etc."
And I feel REALLY SORRY for people that do. Get a hobby or something, seriously!

Quote:

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
Marie..... while I don't necessarily agree or have an opinion on your post, I do have to say that I really respect it.

I think most people's anger in this thread having to do with the other thread are the racial comments made about whites... ex: the ones I quoted from the other thread. And, like you said, there are comments back and forth that are unnecessary. But the thing is why when someone of non-African American race makes a comment- and it could be the littlest thing- it's not ok? However there are ridiculous comments being made about white people and it's ok? Like I could say... and this is just an example: Wow she's really dark/light and I feel like I'd be called a racist for making that comment. Or if Diddy's band would have been 3 black girls and 2 white girls I could be like "oh Diddy blah blah fill in opposite of calling it a whitewash". Please don't respond with the argument and discussion of discrimination and such because I know that. But what bothers me is that respect goes both ways. How can "we" respect those African Americans making comments like that? And it's the same. How can those African Americans respect non-African Americans who are making comments? It's a sad double standard in the aspect of trying to respect and understand someone.

For me many of those types of comments are not ok, but then I also don't believe in African-Americans using the N-word either. However, I will say that I doubt that someone who is making a wide generalization is looking for respect or genuine discussion anyway, so they probably aren't concerned about a double standard. I could say more about racism in the US and how offensive comments may warrant greater or lesser reactions from blacks v. whites (not making it ok, but tolerable enough to persist), but you asked me not to and I'll honor that.

Marie

The arguments in this thread make no sense.

Well, if I had to pick between Nicole and Nik, I would pick Nicole.

But if I had to pick between Bre and Nicole, I would pick Bre.

I just didn't care for Nik's look in general and didn't know why everyone kept raving over her - especially with her Mariah Carey You Can Only Photograph One Side of My Face issues.

Bre was the prettiest of the final three, but the judges weighed it on things other than looks. Once they got rid of Bre they had the two they had to pick from.

Nik did get over her one-sided photos....they didn't look as good as her side ones, but she tried to make it work. I see Nicole as a good CG model, better than Nik, but that's ONLY how I see her. Nik could have done EVERYTHING else, I think Nik would've won if any other company had been in the prize package.

Well, at least she would have in a perfect world where nobody would trip over three women of color winning in a row, but that would've been the quickest way to get the show canceled so...

Quote:

Originally posted by christiangirl
but that would've been the quickest way to get the show canceled so...

I'm really curious as to why people think her audience would disappear and her show would be pulled? Who do you think her audience is...? It doesn't appear to be any one type of viewer.

Quote:

Originally posted by LeslieAGD
I'm really curious as to why people think her audience would disappear and her show would be pulled? Who do you think her audience is...? It doesn't appear to be any one type of viewer.

Have you ever seen ratings for shows based on race? I don't have the statistics in front of me, but typically, the top 10 shows in white homes are VERY different from the top 10 shows in black homes. Most whites do not watch "black" oriented shows. Recently, a GCer posted a thread about a "new" show he "discovered": Girlfriends and how funny it was. Most of the black people here kinda chuckled because they had been watching it for years, but, many people make their viewing choices based on who they can relate to. Sure, there have been shows with a majority black cast that did well over all (Cosby), but beyond that, can you think of many? I think it is a legitimate concern. TV shows are kinda like with neighborhoods. If you have one or two black neighbors it is cool how "diverse" your neighborhood is, any more than that, people are afraid it will turn into the ghetto, no matter how nice and white flight occurs.

Marie,
Your post was dead on!!! Loved it!!

If I had to choose one, I'd choose none.

Seriously, none of these America's Next Top Model girls are really America's Next Top Model. The next Tyra, Heidi, Elle, Naomi, or Giselle is not spending her time trying out for ANTM. She probably got a contract with Ford or Elite on her own.

I'm sorry but very few (if any) of the ANTM contestants could hold their own on a catwalk next to one the real American Top Models.

(I'm prepared for the flames but think about it....most of the contestants and even some of the winners are really, really bad. Adrienne Curry vs. Alessandra Ambrosio. I choose Alessandra)

Quote:

Originally posted by ZTAngel
If I had to choose one, I'd choose none.

Seriously, none of these America's Next Top Model girls are really America's Next Top Model. The next Tyra, Heidi, Elle, Naomi, or Giselle is not spending her time trying out for ANTM. She probably got a contract with Ford or Elite on her own.

I'm sorry but very few (if any) of the ANTM contestants could hold their own on a catwalk next to one the real American Top Models.

(I'm prepared for the flames but think about it....most of the contestants and even some of the winners are really, really bad. Adrienne Curry vs. Alessandra Ambrosio. I choose Alessandra)

I see what you're saying but these women are at the beginning of their careers. They didn't even know how to walk. There is no way they will be as good as current supermodels. Even though the show is called "...Top Model", you really don't hear about any of them except during the show. The only reason you hear about Adrienne when ANTM isn't on is because of her personality (the show is named after him, not her).

Quote:

Originally posted by DPiece7
That is just an example of how race does play a role in most things in our society. You're right! A Latina or Black person could get into school with a lower GPA, lower LSAT scores, etc than you have- because that is the least this society can do to make up for the fact that we attend the worst schools, live in the worst neighborhoods, and are not granted the same opportunities as most. If you disagree that many minorities are born into a disadvantaged position by the mere fact that their skin is darker, you are sadly mistaken. It doesnt surprise me that many of you feel this way... many of my white peers have the same attitude. I dont necessarily fault you because you havent been exposed to it. But to continue to remain ignorant after people who have EXPERIENCED this try to explain it to you is unacceptable.

In a perfect world, we would be color blind. But unfortunately we aren't a perfect world.

My personal opinion on the digression of graduate school, is that when 5000 people are applying for roughly 100-500 open spots, that race SHOULD NOT be a determining factor in whether a person is admitted or not. My problem is, is that it is made a factor and it shouldn't be.

Society is putting labels on people by their skin color not by who they are. Discrimination is still discrimination is still discrimination, no matter how we label it.

So now people are in an uproar because a white girl won. Like I said earlier, we weren't the judges, we don't know what they were thinking. And speaking of the judges, Tyra and Miss Jay, African American. Nigel, mixed and Twiggy white. So if we are making the assumption that it really was "all about race", shouldn't we assume that Tyra and Miss Jay would have wanted Nik to win because of her skin color? I personally don't think that. I think they are looking long term. Who could be the best model.

It seems to me that Yoanna is doing pretty good for herself (this is purely based off comments others have made about her successes). Eva is doing pretty well. Adrienne, well we know what is going on with her.

Which leaves Niama. Personally, I think the girl has the personality of a rock. I think if anyone influence these judges it was Cover Girl (their biggest sponser), saying they want someone with a personality. I don't believe any of the producers or even CG came up and said "we want a white girl". Because they could have easily done that last season.

Marie: I completely and utterly respect everything you said. I agree with some of it.

Sahara: I definately agree. These women are at the beginning of their careers. I could really see Eva doing incredibly well in the future.

Quote:

Originally posted by ariesrising
Most real working high fashion models are quite young, anywhere from 14-18 usually and a minimum of 5'10". My pet peeve with ANTM is so many of the contestants are older and short - they are not going to make it as a "real" model.

The show is pretty much a joke if you want to work as a high fashion model - about 80% are too short or too old to work as it is. I think if most of the ANTM contestants walked into a real agency, they would be turned down faster than hell.

What's weird is they why do they keep picking the older girls to compete? They always end up dropping them before the end.

Adrienne was like 20 when she won. I'm not sure how old Yoanna or Eva was. Niama I think was around 20 and I'm pretty sure Nicole is 18. But because of the whole reality show part of it the girls have to be at least 18. If they did younger they would have to pull an AI (American Idol) and have one of the parents living with the girl in the house. Which you know they wouldn't want to do because you might not get all the drama (unless it's a total stage mom living there and encouraging the drama. ;))