Listening to closing arguments in GZ/Martin case
 

I realize this is probably the most watched case in this guys' legal career, but he needs to hit reset.

Breathe. His modulation is all over the place (spastic, almost). He's repeating himself and, to be at the outset of his remarks, is waaay too amped up.

The prosecutor didn't have any of his shit together at all.

Still, I will be very upset if this Defendant goes free or gets a light sentence. He is an example of part of what has gone wrong with our country since the rise of the neoconservatives.

I want those burden of proof posters for my own use. Those are awesome. I know a lot of folks want Zimmerman to be guilty. I haven't followed the trial all that closely, but that said, I haven't seen anything which proves him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I did watch some of the state's forensics expert testify. He was utterly unprofessional. His conduct might raise the jury's concern about the partiality of the evidence derived from the autopsy.

There's been a lot of evidence introduced, but nothing which proves anything by the burden the state's required to prove.

I'm not so sure that Mark O'Mara's video was as effective as he was hoping for, but overal I think he's presenting a solid case. I think the prosecution came off badly in their closing argument-- shrieking and presenting too fast. Mark O'Mara is coming off (at least to me) as calm and confident, which should inspire confidence in the jury.

Well, it's sad that the State didn't put their best foot forward here. I believe in my heart that this is a wrongful death and if he walks it will be just awful (Now you see why I don't practice criminal law.) You know Florida put that woman away who fired two warning shots at an aggressor/intruder and didn't hit/harm anyone. So glad I don't live in Florida. I would not accept any amount of cash to live there again.

I practice criminal as part of my practice and really enjoy it. Around here, the ADAs, at least in my experience are extremely reasonable and charge and prosecute crimes appropriately.

As far as this being a wrongful death case, all they have to prove is a preponderance of the evidence, so kind of like OJ, Zimmerman won't do any time, but he may end up with a big 'ol non-bankruptable punitive judgement hanging around his neck for a good long time.

I haven't been following it closely either (too depressing to see what has become of our society), but I thought the note from the judge that she will allow manslaughter is a flag to the jurors that that's what they should do. While I don't see the kid as the boy scout they were originally portraying him as, I don't think he merited what he got either. And to me that kind of sounds like manslaughter. You know, me and my JD degree ;) so take that for what it's worth.

I don't see how it could be manslaughter.

If Zimmerman was acting in self defense, he's not guilty.

If he approached Martin and intended only to accost him and they got into a physical altercation in which Martin got the upper hand, that's still self defense (no duty to retreat in Florida), he's not guilty.

If he approached Martin and intended only to accost him and they got into a physical altercation in which he got the upper hand, he then took his sidearm and shot Martin in the heart, he's guilty of murder. In most states premeditation can happen in an instant and it takes deliberation and thought and purpose to pull a gun, aim and shoot, and shooting in the heart shows intent to kill, so he'd be guilty of murder.

If Zimmerman assaulted Martin and the fight went either for Martin or for Zimmeman and Zimmerman shot Martin while committing the battery, that's murder or felony murder.

I just don't see a scenario where manslaughter can happen.

But wouldn't Martin have just been defending himself under the same law? Zimmerman was the one chasing after Martin.

It would of course depend on the sort of physical altercation. I speculate the 'no duty to retreat' laws might lead to situations where both parties are justified in using deadly force.

Then there's who threw the first punch, how the fight escalated, etc. Even if Zimmerman accosted Martin, the state has to prove that Zimmerman didn't act in self defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

With evidence like the state has, they should probably have never filed charges. They did, maybe that works for a conviction. We'll know in a little bit.

what are the conditions for proving manslaughter?

I was off on my elements. My mistake... I only know Oklahoma law anyhow.

I think manslaughter would work in Oklahoma. No idea about Florida.

Here are the Oklahoma Uniform Jury Instructions for manslaughter:

The misdemeanor could be assault and battery.

My dad's wife has been watching every minute of the trial on TV. She seems to think there is no way Zimmerman is guilty. She also said that the media is reporting things very differently than they are happening in the court room and she is astonished at how inaccurate the media has been. I can't think of the specific example she gave, but she said the testimony said one thing and they reported the exact opposite in the media.

They also live very close to Sanford and she said "they" are recommending that people not go far from home because they will have about an hour notice when the verdict has been reached and they should not leave their houses at that point due to concerns about riots if Zimmerman is found not guilty.

This is her facebook post about it... I can't even call them right now because she'll rant for an hour about this. Can we say obsessed? She never should have retired...

"OK. Zimmerman trial update. S*** and I have been watching the trial "gavel to gavel"
(remember, spelling is not my strong point). And to get it out of the way, it is in the upper 90's in Florida so I am NOT leaving the house. Will be back out in November, anyway, we will then watch the news and look at each other and wonder if the "news" people are watching the same trail we are.
We have watched as the "prosecution" witnesses have either been discredited or wound up being a stronger witness for the defense. One witness has done an interview after saying on the 911 call that she didn't want to give her name because she didn't want to be a witness, yea, right and one sold pics that her husband took to the media.
The young women who was on the phone with Trayvon, has a lawyer provided to her by the attorney for Trayvon's parents. Trayvon's mother was also in with the prosecutor during this women deposition.
The 1st day, the lady from the Sanford police dept. told how she wanted GZ to join the neighborhood patrol with uniform shirt and car with amber light, but he declined, so much for the wanabe cop.
2 of the witnesses, the hysterical cat lady and the one today who claimed she yelled at them and saw GZ on top, lived about 200 feet down the lane and this on a very dark and rainy night. Also had to look around a column and past fences.
So, bottom line, do not believe what you hear on the news tonight.
Big Flash, they have an agenda

We will continue to watch, at least until the grandkids get here and will do updates if anyone is interested, By the way, the most credible witness so far is a realtor."

Long post ahead:

LOL. The media is the media. People who want the "raw data" need to watch the trial instead of waiting for the media's Cliff Notes.

On that note, there are things that people sitting in the courtroom will see that those watching the TV trial will not see. For instance, the jury is not always in the courtroom when the defense attorney is strongly opposing the judge. The fact that the jury is not always in the courtroom during those exchanges matters a great deal.

I have been watching the trial but, frankly, I find this case to be quite annoying for many reasons. My mom has been following this probably as much as AGDee's dad's wife. Every time my mom calls, I know it is to discuss the trial so I let it go to voicemail sometimes. LOL.

My mom and I had a fun debate this morning about the jury's decision. I do not have high hopes so I will not be shocked either way. I definitely do not want rioting. I commend the community leaders and media representatives who have worked tirelessly to prepare people for any outcome. This will prayerfully reduce the shock and anger if there is a not guilty verdict for ANY charge. I want people to use their anger to push for positive community change and support the family in a possible appeal or civil suit. Besides violence being too shortsighted and predictable, it has no benefits. As with most instances of public outrage in human history, I will use the Rodney King verdict as an example, people get violent and become that which they claimed to despise. They tend to tear apart their own communities, many of which are already struggling, and become what many whites (yes, this is a racial divide) would consider an illustration of why Trayvon Martin got what he deserved. And I hope and pray that people do not physically attack George Zimmerman. Vigilante justice grates my nerves. I dislike taking the law into your own hands whether we are talking about Joe Horn in Texas, George Zimmerman in Florida, many excuses used for Stand Your Ground laws, and people physically attacking someone who they believe got away from the law.

All in all, although this has not been proven in a court of law, I truly believe that Zimmerman took the Neighborhood Watch beyond the level of being an observant neighbor who calls the police a lot. I believe he was pissed at the things happening in his neighborhood and thought he would make sure it ended. I believe Zimmerman was being froggy and took a leap that ended up with his ass getting whooped. Trayvon Martin had every right to defend himself and whoop Zimmerman's ass. I wish it would have ended with just an ass whooping and perhaps even the police stepping in to arrest the ass whooper and ass whoopee. At least they would have both lived to tell about it.

This is yet another reminder that guns are a facilitating factor for crime and violence. I want the fools who use the phrase "guns don't kill people, people kill people" to choke on it. I am not anti-guns but I am anti-bullshit. The day that the NRA and other gun advocates acknowledge that they are majority white and of certain socioeconomic statuses, and the day they acknowledge that this gun debate would have been shut down years ago if the majority of NRA and gun rights advocates were Black and nonwhite Hispanic men particularly in lower SES, is the day I will take the pro-gun people seriously.

I truly believe George Zimmerman does NOT look white. He doesn't. However, as with many Hispanics since Hispanic is an ethnicity that encompasses different races, it can be the case that Zimmerman used his last name and other ways to assimilate into whiteness. That is absolutely fine because it is personal choice. However, I believe Zimmerman's family has highlighted the nonwhite and Hispanic aspects of themselves more since this trial began. I also disagree with Anderson Cooper, et al and believe Zimmerman intentionally gained weight to appear less capable of being an aggressive ass whooper. Similarly, Trayvon Martin's family downplayed the dumb things this teen has done over the years that could make him come across as a thug--or wanna be thug. Sure, those things do not mean that he deserved to be shot for having a hoodie and Skittles. But those things would have some people believe that he was being the aggressor and Zimmerman was defending himself.

And while I'm at it, I love Anderson Cooper 360 but some of those expert commentators have been annoying me. I agree with what some of the panelists have said. I agree with much of what Sunny Hostin says and hated it last night when the remaining panel experts (not Anderson Cooper) told her that she was bringing in her own biases. First off, Sunny Hostin is a former prosecutor. Second off, she has been in the courtroom everyday of this trial. Third off, ALL HUMANS bring in their own biases. Even when we know the facts, we pick and choose which things to highlight and which things we agree and disagree with. Not all legal experts agree on these topics and people are not automatically uninformed, emotional, biased fools just because you disagree with their expert opinion. With that said, this is another example of white male privilege. We have a panel of white men on Anderson Cooper 360 who get to pretend as though they are robots whereas Sunny Hostin is the only human on the panel. Sunny Hostin handled their stupidity quite well and told them that, yes, she brings in her biases as a Black Hispanic woman, former prosecutor...and other biases...who has been sitting in that courtroom everyday. Take that, white men panelists!

Dr. Phil, I have watched very little of the coverage because I never do watch any of these high profile trials and the hoopla that accompanies them. Appreciate your thought on this matter and agree. I am saddened by this unnecessary event. It hurts my brain to think about how this spiraled into such a moronic showdown all because of a gun and GZ's vigilante sense of justice. I agree that Trayvon Martin had every right to kick his ass and didn't deserve a gunshot through the heart for the effort. If GZ'S was so scared that he needed that gun, he should have kept his scared ass in his car or his house.

The only thing that comforts me in all of this, since no verdict will bring a 17 yo back, is that GZ will never live a normal life again. He's not employable. He is a pariah. And he deserves it.

The jury might see it as a signal, but they shouldn't. If Florida law is anything like the law here, the judge doesn't have any discretion about it. If a defendant requests an instruction on a lesser included offense, and there is evidence from which a jury could find the elements of that lesser included offense, then the judge is required to give the instruction.

I guess I should give make this disclaimer: I haven't watched a minute of the trial or followed it at all. The only news I've heard on it are snippets I've happened to hear or this thread. And it was worth reading this thread just to get to this quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2225243) I am not anti-guns but I am anti-bullshit.

Quoted for truth.

There is more that I can say about this, including personal experience, but this isn't one of THOSE threads.

That remains to be seen. Joe Horn in Texas is a retiree and some of the public (especially in Texas) loved him before and after he was cleared by a grand jury. Zimmerman isn't a retiree but may find work because 1) there are some people who think he did the right thing; 2) there are jobs where his name and face will not be revealed...becoming a 911 Dispatcher would be ironic; 3) time can heal some wounds; and 4) George Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman, knows people. Random Sidebar: "George Zimmerman" and "Robert Zimmerman" are not completely uncommon names. Robert Zimmerman is also the name of a CNN contributor and Bob Dylan's birthname.

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I believe they up-played their Hispanic roots for this case but the Zimmermans claimed they downplayed their Hispanic roots. I believe up-playing would have a more desired outcome than downplaying. It would be the difference between it being Black-and-white versus Black-and-nonwhite Hispanic. Race and potential racial tension doesn't disappear when it is Black-and-nonwhite Hispanic but it doesn't have the same history and present day race relations.

Fox News Latino article published today:
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2013/07/12/george-zimmerman-family-deliberately-downplayed-his-latino-roots/

Do I believe Zimmerman would have done what he did if he assumed the hooded person was white? NO and he wouldn't be the first or last person to respond to people based on appearances and assumptions. Do I believe Zimmerman would have been arrested and treated like an offender if he had done this to a white 17 year old? YES. That includes a white 17 year old who was smoking a blunt and putting up graffiti rather than walking in the rain with a hoodie and Skittles. Do I believe Zimmerman would have been treated like an offender if his Hispanic identity was more highlighted or if he was a Black man? YES, especially if Martin was white. There would be less public outrage, angst, and urgency if it was a Black or nonwhite Hispanic 17 year old.

Now we wait for the jury.

Verdict is in, and it's bullshit. I thought they could find him guilty for a lesser charge? Manslaughter???

It's Florida, anything seems to go there. After Casey Anthony walked last year nothing out of that states legal system will surprise me.

I'm trying really hard to remember that there may have been evidence introduced in the court case that we didn't know about.

In my honest (and possibly unwelcome opinion), the prosecution did not do the best job it could have done. From some of the things I read about the case, they were not doing the best job of proving Zimmerman's guilt.....

Ditto

ETA: I do not agree with the verdict.

Absolutely stunned.

This was the feeling I also had. Casey Anthony all over again. "Guilty" but the prosecution couldn't prove it.

Can he be sued like OJ Simpson? I would sue for everything he owned plus futures earning from what he would earn from this.

I'm assuming the Martin family will file a civil suit...

I feel like one of the most naïve people in the U.S. I thought Zimmerman would at least get manslaughter.

I'm not surprised.

When I said a wrongful death earlier, I was not taking "criminal" murder, but moral and ethical. While I wish he could be held culpable for murder, I am not surprised at this outcome. The burden of proof is high, as it should be.

I agree with all of this.

^^^^ I agree *winter*. And I believe this will also cause a rash of similar deaths. IMHO,

The burden of proof is even higher when you have a ridiculous law like "stand your ground" on the books.

Any backlash should be against the NRA.

Fascinated about the post-court interview with the prosecutors. Amused how cheerful and polite the lead prosecutor was...reminds me of a Southern party where the hostess wants everyone to have a good time...

Yes. I heard Florida's chief NRA lobbyist in Florida is jokingly referred to around Tallahassee as "the Governor."

Politicians being politicians.

She was in the courtroom everyday (almost everyday?) and many people had no idea who she was and that she was even in the courtroom. In other words, commentators believe her cheerful demeanor at this post-verdict interview is indicative of her perspective on this case. She considered herself to be playing both sides with the hope of remaining neutral enough to not ruin her political career. She made the trial happen--which is what she promised Trayvon Martin's family--but she, herself, perhaps did not go above and beyond the call of duty. She did just enough with perhaps the understanding that the prosecution would not have enough to convict. Therefore, her constituency would not be pissed at her (many, if not most, of whom believed Zimmerman is not at fault) and her political life is safe. As for the supporters of the Martin family who are pissed about the verdict, most of them do not know who in the hell this Lead Prosecutor is.

I agree with *winter* but am not shocked by the verdict. I hope there will be a civil suit which does not have the same burden of proof as the criminal suit. That is how things happened with O.J. Simpson. I am happy there has not been violent protest, with exception for a few idiots in Oakland who broke some windows and tried to start some street fires but even they were calmed by police.

This isn't the first time the NRA can kiss my ass but they can definitely kiss my ass now. *insert my words that MysticCat quoted*

And this gym can deeeeeeeply, romannnnntically, and intennnnnnnnsely kiss my ass:

So...uhhh...you testify in a court of law that George Zimmerman was an out of shape wimp who couldn't fight despite your attempts to train him. Then...uhhh...you market yourself as George Zimmerman's gym. Uh...but...I thought you can't make nonfighters into fighters and you can't stop people from sucking at defending themselves. Uhhh...I smell shit...undoubtedly from this gym kissing my ass.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3579830.html

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...NZPAwgke8icxOF

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ETA: http://www.forwardprogressives.com/t...rayvon-martin/

I agree with the gist of this article

disclaimer: I can absolutely guarantee that someone isn't going to like what I have to say. The least you can be is RESPECTFUL. I haven't quoted anyone. I haven't called anyone out on their opinion, all I've done is stated mine.

Let's not turn this thread into a train-wreck that has to be closed because we can't respect others opinions.

I am probably one of the few people on this thread that thinks that the prosecution didn't have enough evidence to take to trial, let alone convict. The prosecution was forced, due to media and society pressure, to take it to trial (the same can be said about Casey Anthony). When you are taking someone to trial with not enough hard evidence to make your case, chances are that it leaves room for reasonable doubt. What I know about the case, I wouldn't have been able to convict.

But my friend on facebook made a wonderful point, that people are just plain forgetting.....

"Anyone know why Treyvon had the right to defend himself against George in the alley for following him but George was not supposed to have the right to defend himself against Treyvon for attacking him?"

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Treyvon was allowed defend himself when George was following him, but that George wasn't allowed to defend himself when Treyvon was attacking him.

Just like George should have listened to the 9-1-1 operator and not have engaged Treyvon. Treyvon should have gotten off the phone with the girl and called 9-1-1, not attack George.

Everyone is really good about blaming George, because he's alive. God forbid we put any blame on Treyvon because he's dead. They both made choices that weren't correct.