Bullying as AL described above is hazing. New member education, association and pledging--whatever you call it--is for one semester. Hazing consists of often illegal or stupid activities that need to stop.

I just keep reading the comments of those of you who think "hazing is cool, dude" and the "funnest"--and all I see is young people who really need some time to mature; young people who do not appear to have any positive expectations for how people are to treat them or other people; young people without ethical decision making skills or personal standards--and I find that incredibly sad.

Tom, like I said, I agree with you. No, it is not cool to send someone to the hospital. If I had to go to the hospital I would probobly be pretty upset, and in pain!! Like I said, we didn't take it that far.....

I am somewhat dumfounded by those members who are advocating 'innocent,' 'brotherhood/sisterhood building' hazing. I understand it happened to you and therefore you have entered into a virtuous cycle; however, stop for a moment and think.

As a potential hazer --- how does the fact that someone sticks around and allows you to haze them building unity? I do not would want someone who allwed their character and body to be humiliated or beaten in my organization. Think about it... it does not make any logical or ethical sense. Justice as fairness...

Our hazing is constructive. It is never painful. It builds brotherhood. I think it helped me immensly. Some of the values I was forced to have during pledgeship have turned around everything. I am doing better on tests, I act better and so on. Thus I like hazing.

And that is the reason many of us disagree!

Because so many people on here consider hazing some dangerous, horrible act. We never did anything degrading, dangerous, painful, etc.

I'm not so sure it's as simple as black and white/wrong and right. Keep in mind that most of our organizations didn't get serious about having or enforcing hazing policies until civil liability became an issue.

Many currently, and many before us used hazing as a means to bring a pledge class together.

My father's pledge class was hazed worse than I've ever heard anyone being hazed today -- there were broken bones and people getting pretty sick. They ended up kidnapping their pledge trainer, stripping him down to his tighty-whities, and leaving him out in the middle of BFE handcuffed to an oil rig. Despite all of that, he looks upon that period with a certain degree of fondness.

My experience was quite a bit different. I was a founding member of my chapter. One of the cornerstones on which our particular chapter was founded was that we wouldn't ever haze much for the same reasons that you have listed above. Although my experience was vastly different from my father's, both of us would tell you that we had a hell of a good time.

In the almost 40 years that passed between my colony experience and his pledging, a lot changed in the fraternal world. He marvels at how no one was actually killed while he was in school -- well that changed eventually.

The thing that confuses me about hazing is that there are all of these severe punishments for it while we almost turn a blind eye to alcohol abuse. What makes that even more amazing is that it seems that a great many of these hazing stories involve alcohol abuse. Accordingly, if there was one thing I could change about the fraternal landscape, it would be the way that we addressed alcohol.

What sets a generally positive hazing experience apart from a negative one seems to be the restraint shown by the members in making their pledges 'run the gauntlet.' There's a huge difference, for example between 'bows and toes' and that story today where the hazers stand accused of causing scarring with a rubber band while repeatedly punching the pledge in the hip until serious damage was done.

My take is that the current "no hazing ever" policies are a band-aid to the real problem. It seems likely to me that the current policies are forced on our organizaitons by our respective insurance companies. Since in the past, we've shown the lack of restraint needed to have effective pledging programs with hazing, we all need to gravitate to something where restraint isn't required. This is where we've seen the rise of national programming built to take the place of our more 'traditional' approaches to pledge training.

I did not want to go through Your whole Quote/Statement, but as a Founder, I was of the same beleif.

We did line ups as it was accepted and The Then Pledges doing House Cleaning dutys on Sat. Morning, main floor only common rooms, but not the kitchen.

I would not allow any physical harm of any kind to New Guys. That was also the same beleifs of the Members I recruited from GDIs who liked it to others who left other GLOs at the time.

I am surprised when I get reports about other GLOs Chapters who do not profess Hazing and especially one of Mine as We are Anti Hazing as it were.

I do get Livid when I hear of this as We all should.

Hazing, by definition, is something that is degrading, dangerous or painful, isn't it?

refer to ktsnake

Getting beat up by other seniors and people younger than you because you're on the swim team and in the high school band sounds like beating someone up, not hazing. I highly doubt any organization ever hazes the most senior members as a group, it sounds obvious that the guy was a nerd (a threat to our way of life) and got beat up by bigger or cooler kids. Show me an organization where younger members line up older members and requires constant hazing for the entire time you're a part of it, and I'll show you an organization that doesn't exist.

A little pain never hurt anyone.

What I don't get is the difference between a group of people joining an organization with full knowledge that they are going to get hazed, and a group of kinky leather wearing spanking freaks knowing (and probably paying) for getting beaten beyond the realm of a college fraternity.

Are the gimps in a different position because they're going to enjoy every minute of getting tied up and whacked around? If so that would make hazing a question of enjoyment which is a very fine line to walk. Along the same line of thought, if someone does something to me that I do not enjoy I am being hazed. I should bring this up with some professors the next time I have a test, or a coach the next time we run sprints at the end of practice for a laugh.

The way I see it, as long as all parties are free to walk out at any time, there shouldn't be any problem with a fraternity doing whatever they want to pledges within the realm of building brotherhood, and using that "within the realm of building brotherhood" is a personal moral thing. If people are allowed to do half of the messed up stuff that goes on behind closed doors in this country, I don't see any problem with a lineup.

And thats all I have to say about that.

Doesn't pain hurt by definition?

I'm saying in the broader context. A little bit of physical pain and mind games, especially if you signed up for it, isn't going to outweigh the potential good thats there.

I see no link between joining a GLO and what an adult may choose to do in the privacy of their bedrooms. I see where FH may have been trying to go but linking the two is a stretch at best.

Running laps in sports is with the goal of building your physical endurance, something important to success in a sport. Taking tests is a way measure of your academic performance, which is important to success in your studies.

Building unity is important in fraternities, but there are better ways to accomplish it than hazing or engaging in unhealthy traditions which may include demeaning new members or putting them in unsafe situations. That's the point--there are better ways to build unity than through hazing--so why not set a high expectation for your organization and pursue those avenues to buidling brother/sisterhood, rather than just do what is easy or convenient? Businesses don't use hazing...why should we?