Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

that's what happens when parents don't teach their kids consequences. forget that time out bullsh*t, need to bring back the belt.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

Easy to say, but way too simple, I think. While not taking sides on the corporal punishment argument, I just don't believe that there is any easily identifiable solution.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

yeah i know....but i'm a firm believer in corporal punishment personally.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

Great! They already have a problem with violence, so let's teach them that hitting people is okay! That'll solve all the problems. :rolleyes:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

actually, speaking from experience....it teaches consequences.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

And speaking from experience, it never stopped me from anything. This should probably be a seperate thread, but I don't think spanking/belt lashing/whatever taught me anything. I'm also worried about the precedent that it could set for abuse - the only other person I know who got spanked ended up being abused.

I think a problem in suburban communities is that kids have way too much free time - for the most part, they don't have jobs and they have cars, so they don't have a sense of responsibility because things are handed to them. I think a part time job and not getting every new shirt at Abercrombie might help.

I can't believe I just spent hours reading this entire thread. ugh. I'm not even going to comment about any of the hazing as it's already all been said, but as for the "bring back the belt" sentiment, I really disagree.
While it may teach some kids consequences, it teaches others that (as above person stated) hitting people is ok, and still others it teaches ways to get around punishments.
my mother used the belt on me for a good 13 odd years or so, until she realized that during the time she was going to get the belt, I was stuffing toilet paper in my pants to lessen the blow-- then faking that I was hurt.


All I'm really saying is that if parents are involved enough without being forceful, there shouldn't be a need to hit your children.
Especially in the case of the hazing girls. I wonder if their parents hit them?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

that's all fine and dandy, all of the folks i know who got spanked as kids turned out better than a lot of those kids who got the "time out." most of those other kids turned out to be pretty spoiled. theres a line between abuse and discipline. it's up to the parent to take it back. forget that curbing creativity line....it ain't creative if it's not constructive. if you don't think so, fine...don't do it. i'm a firm believer in it, and best believe if my kids act a fool in the grocery aisle.....i'm not the parent to be "come on little johnny, if you behave you'll get a cookie when we get home." best believe that my kids won't be rewarded for good behavior....it's expected. these kids don't have a sense of responsibility because every single time they mess up...mommy and daddy bail their asses out. as far as the girls who struck....their mentality was like "it wasn't as if we killed them." right....sounds like someone who was disciplined a whole lot at home.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

I distinctly remember asking my mom why I didn't get an allowance.

Her respose? Well:

"You know that roof above your head, the food you eat that I cook and those clothes you wear to school every day? Welcome to your allowance."

I have a question: I was doing the family laundry, washing the dishes, vaccuming and so forth when I was 8, but, you all did all that at your age, right?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

not the family laundry, moms didn't want me acting a fool with it. was doing vacuuming and washing dishes and taking care of my little brother and mowing the lawn. i also got the "i brought you into this world, i can take you out of it." and i think one time i told my dad i was going to run away, he opened up the door for me.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hazing Task Force News
 

I know that my kids, and most of their friends, have far less free time than I had as a high school student. Student activities are big here--it is not unusual for my kids to be at school between 10 and 12 hours on school days. The years my daughter was on the swim team and in marching band I rarely saw her during the fall.

The advice we hear is keep 'em busy, keep 'em out of trouble. It seems to have worked for us. Reading through some of the news stories it seems like many of the GBN seniors were involved--lots of LAX players--I can't remember what else.

I think where the parents went wrong was not making them accept consequences for their actions (e.g., the girl who was expelled in April, wiggled out of it and then get involved in Powder Puff) and tolerating illegal behavior (underage drinking). If parents think the rules don't count, what will the kids think?

I personally know many kids who have a lot but at the same time they are hardworking, responsible and caring.

In Chit Chat, there's a link to an article about kids in Canada having these huge parties where houses are getting trashed. One theory behind this is that the kids are so over-programmed by their parents that when they actually have free time, they have no idea what to do. Granted, it's been a few years since I was a HS senior, but that's what the scene was like with me--I'm sure it's remained the same, or gotten far worse. Many adolescents have no idea of how to manage their own time, instead depending on parents and a bevy of activities to essentially "babysit" their children. It happens younger and younger--my niece's friends (just finished first grade) have schedules that make my head spin.

Plus, it always seemed like it was the super involved kids--the athletes, class officers, and club members--who got in the most trouble relating to weekend parties. I really wouldn't be surprised if all of the GBN kids had great resumes.

My parents were authoritative, yet they didn't resort to discipline by fear. Is this why I turned out the way I did? Maybe. I think we'll see both sides of the coin with these girls--parents who were strict, and parents who were lax. It's all about the healthy balance.

Munchkin,

That's an interesting thought. I have a slightly different spin on it, although the outcome may be the same.

In our experience, the high schools themselves have so many activities (especially the senior year), that the kids, who aren't always the best at communication and prior planning, go into, "Meeting, Assembly, Awards Dinner, Rehearsal, etc." overload.

Our youngest just graduated last year, and he was exactly the kid we're talking about -- Student body officer and in a billion activities. (does that sound exagerated?)

He's a great kid, National Merit, etc., but for a while he just sort of went where he was pointed.

Thanks for the post.

I know it's not exaggerated. I was one of those kids. I directed or had an office in almost every single thing I did and was in all IB classes (think AP but harder, with more classes). But, during my senior year, my parents realized I was having too many "Maalox Moments" and forced me to cut back on everything except academic stuff and two activities. It made me a lot happier, saved a lot on gas mileage, and prepared me for college, when I had lots of free time on my hands.

All of my friends were in the same position, and it didn't stop any of them from getting in trouble--even the kids who pulled 1600s and had all sorts of national honors. So, "keep 'em busy" isn't a surefire method to keep 'em outta trouble.

There's a fine line between keep em busy, keep em out of trouble, and overloading the kids so much (I'm talking about the parents and the school) that they don't have time to be kids. There was an article in Talk magazine (R.I.P) where the 14 year olds were talking about how they were so overprogrammed and pressured during the week, they went crazy with drinking and sex on the weekends. If you give a child an adult schedule, it's not surprising that they will "relax" with what are considered adult activities.

My parents never pushed me, mainly because one of their friends' kids had a nervous breakdown from being involved in so many things. I think they were very wary of saying "well why don't you do more of this or that" because of her experience.

I mean, when I was 16, I could go to the drugstore and browse around the makeup and magazines for an hour, daydreaming. Do kids these days even know what daydreaming is?

Busy vs. Overload
 

The posts above make good points. There is no single magic bullet that ensures that high schoolers consistently make good choices. I'm fairly confident that I've been lucky with my kids, and I know what's worked for them.

There are dozens of activities at the Glenbrooks (and lots of other suburban high schools). Not so every student needs to be involved in every activity, but to ensure that every student can find some niche to belong to. It makes the big school smaller and the intent is to create an environment where there are no outcasts.

We've always tried to get our kids to be involved in no more than 3 activities at any time. Generally they are doing a music thing, sometimes they're involved in a sport, and they attend the youth group at church. I think occassional "crunch" times are good preparation for the real world--it teaches kids that they can operate at a high level for a period of time--but I don't advocate crunch time all the time.

I think it's important to pick one activity to really get involved in. For my kids, that's been music. They spend a lot of time with a good group of kids and develop a talent that they can use outside of school--my daughter plays in the church orchestra and hopes to join an ensemble when she's at college. For my kids, being "Bandies" meant that they had a place to belong even before the first day of school Freshman year.

Are there kids in the band who make bad choices? Of course there are. Does making bad choices ruin them for life? Probably not, but it depends on the types of bad choices they make.

From my perspective, keeping them busy also means guiding my kids to prioritize their activities and manage their time effectively. Their involvement in something that includes performances (or games) gives me a chance to share the experience with them (from a distance), and with the parents of their peers. I have some idea of what's going on in their lives without asking a million questions.

There always has to be balance! Too much of anything is not good.

Straying a little off the original topic, but in line with the later posts:

We have three kids, all of whom graduated from a top notch high school in what is allegedly (you know how I feel about "lists" if you've read my early posts) one of the top ten school districts in the country. Even if that's not accurate, it's an excellent district.

They were all involved in performing arts and a lot of other activities.

Two of them graduated with high academic honors -- one was, in fact, one of the two "Outstanding Seniors" in the school, and one of ten in the entire district and a National Merit Scholar. Our oldest graduated from college Magna Cum Laude. Our youngest finished his Freshman year in college with a 4.0.

The third barely graduated from high school and did the drug experimentation routine and had to go through detox.

Same family, same school -- remarkably different results.

For whatever it's worth, the "challange child" was the only varsity athlete of the three. Aren't athletics supposed to build character and leadership?

I guess my only point in all of this rambling is that kids simply refuse to fit our stereotypes.

Good kids go bad sometimes.

DeltAlum, I am sorry about your child's situation and drug problem. Drugs can take such a terrible and devastating toll on a family. I hope that all of your children are well.

Hi Cream,

Thank you for your good wishs. Actually, the entire family is doing very well now, and our "drugie" has been sober for three years, is married and has presented us with our only grandchild so far. She went to cosmotology school she and her hubby are doing great.

Which brings up another trite old thought, when it comes to kids, all's well that ends well.

Good for her! I am glad that she turned her life around. :)

Another Update
 

From the local newspaper...

Hazing videos to air at teen's trial
BY IRV LEAVITT
STAFF WRITER

Amateur videotapes of the May 4 "powder puff" incident made it a worldwide event, and now, the tapes have moved to the center of the first scheduled trial of a defendant in the incident.

Cook County Circuit Court Judge Timothy Chambers, hearing pre-trial arguments Friday in the misdemeanor battery case against Gina Mengarelli, 18, said showing five or six lengthy tapes to jurors likely means it will take five days to try a case that typically might be completed in hours.

He noted that not only will jurors have to sit through the tapes, but they'll also hear testimony of each of the youths who held the cameras, explaining what they saw. Jury selection was scheduled for Wednesday.

Prosecutor Joan Pernecke said the state expects to call a score of witnesses, including doctors who will testify to injuries two Glenbrook North High School students claim Mengarelli inflicted.

Defense attorney Steven Decker said he plans to only call three or four witnesses.

Decker argued Friday that the tapes shouldn't be allowed as evidence at all, because they were shot without the "powder puff" participants' permission, and therefore violate Illinois' anti-eavesdropping statute. "There's not a scintilla of evidence that anyone there knew their voices were being recorded," he said.

Pernecke's co-prosecutor, Mark Anderson, said he believed Mengarelli and all the other youths present at the Chipilly Woods site saw the video cameras, and were aware their voices could be picked up. "All these individuals were seen by all the other individuals," he said. "Case law ... defines eavesdropping as a conversation that is private and that is recorded secretly."

Decker maintained not only that the tapes should not be allowed as evidence, but also that those who made them could be charged with felonies for eavesdropping. He said that if the television cameras at Wrigley Field were boosted to capture private conversations of baseball fans, those camera operators might be felons, too.

"Are you telling me that in Wrigley Field, they could be committing 38,000 felonies, or 50,000 in Cellular Field?" asked the judge, as he admitted the tapes into evidence. "It was a public park, a public place with millions of video cameras," he said of Chipilly Woods. "Under no circumstances was this a felony."

The judge was unable, however, to immediately rule on another Decker motion last week. The defense attorney wants Chambers to allow him to mount a consent defense, saying that the two youths claiming to be his client's alleged victims actually invited at least some of the abuse they may have received.

Like most of the 15 "powder puff" battery defendants, Mengarelli, now a graduate of Glenbrook North High School, is charged with multiple counts of battery. She is charged with two counts of battery resulting in "bodily harm," for variously pushing, pulling hair, shaking or kicking, according to court documents. She is also charged with two counts of battery of "an insulting and provoking nature," counts that reflect pouring and smearing of various substances upon the youths.

Decker maintained that his client didn't hurt anyone, and that her actions could be explained as consensual acts, since previous "powder puff" events included such abuses, and the then junior class students who participated must have generally known what was coming. He said if some of the activities went beyond what the younger students expected, "too firm of a handshake" or "an over-expressive hug ... could be considered provoking and insulting."

Pernecke countered, "We're talking about someone being kneed in the back, grabbing someone by the hair, and snapping their head back and forth."

Decker backed off the use of the consent defense for the bodily harm battery counts, maintaining that "none of those things are attributable to the defendant," but admitted that she had smeared ketchup and other substances, and that a 2002 "powder puff" videotape will show those actions should have been expected as a traditional part of the annual event. Chambers said he would rule on the consent defense request today in Cook County Second District Criminal Court, 5600 Old Orchard Road, Skokie.

The judge said he would likely also accept into evidence today some school records of the two complainants, which July 15 he ordered that Glenbrook District 225 provide to Decker. Decker wants to use the records to try to impeach the testimony of the complainants, partly by seeing whether they were actually injured enough to miss school or gym class.

District lawyer Camille Grant brought the records to court last week, but said she couldn't give them up, because her firm had failed to notify the students' parents. By law, parents must be informed five days prior to turning over records. Chambers ordered her to inform the parents that day, so that they would have the opportunity to fight the records' use in court today. Attorney Rollin Soskin, who represents both clients in school suspension hearings "and other matters," told the judge he foresaw no protest being made.

Others charged in relation to the May 4 incident are scheduled to appear in court Aug. 15 or Sept. 18, for bench trials or pre-trial motions for bench or jury trials.

More Closure
 

There were more hearings related to the GBN incident today...there's an update on www.nbc5.com. Here's the link:

http://www.nbc5.com/news/2408729/det...94&dppid=65192

Several students have received a combination of community service and court supervision. Apparently once supervision is completed successfully, the incidents may be removed from their criminal records.

There are more hearings September 18. Doctors who treated the injured girls will be at at least one of those hearings.

Guess where Marnie Holz is going to college? Yeah, that's right, my school. At least, that's where she was planning on going -- we're not sure if the UW administration decided to retract their offer of admission after the hazing incident.

Our rush chairs have the names of female GBN seniors who were involved in the hazing case and if any of them of them decide to come through rush here, they will be cut ASAP. I think most other sororities on campus are planning to do the same.

Marnie Holz
 

I hadn't heard that any of the girls had their admissions rescinded. The judge worked the court schedule of one of the girls who was charged so she wouldn't miss her college orientation.

Three of the former juniors (now seniors) who refused to sign the deal and were suspended have filed suit to have their suspensions expunged from their records. Two of the three are still students at GBN, the third has moved out of the area.

Local Paper Editorial
 

While it's not the national story it used to be, the GBN hazing debacle continues to make headlines in the local community.

So far, every teen charged that has gone through the courts has been given court supervision (of up to a year) and community service (I think as much as 60 hours). The moms haven't had their trials yet.

Rules at the high schools are changing to make it clearer that participating in events like powder puff off campus will result in school consequences. The students at South are compiling a list of families who pledge that any parties at their homes will be drug and alcohol free.

The hazing task force meets, and its not clear how effective that effort will be. The following editorial from the local paper has some good questions, similar to those raised by Delt Alum and others on this thread.


Facts are critical to preventing hazing


The task force commissioned to look into the events leading to the May 4 "powder puff" melee appears to have abandoned its charge.

Initial reports of three subcommittees don't shed any light on how or why more than 100 teens gathered in Chipilly Woods to drink alcohol and beat up junior classmates, injuring five girls and giving Northbrook a black eye around the world.

The reports don't tell us anything about what staff at Glenbrook North High School knew about the event beforehand, or why any student or adult -- parent or GBN employee -- failed to sound an alert that this type of illegal behavior was on some kids' agenda.

They don't explain why local police took about 35 minutes to respond to calls about a ruckus in the woods, or why they didn't know state law assigns local police primary responsibility for law enforcement in local forest preserves.

And they don't provide any clues why several students kept videotaping the brawl, rather than calling police or parents for help, or offering any assistance to semi-conscious or bleeding fellow students.

If the panel doesn't answer these questions, it won't be able to suggest what steps should be taken to ensure this never happens again.

That's the reason the task force was formed, isn't it?

Or was it just supposed to provide enough political haze to let the appalling events of May 4 fade from memory?

The suggestions so far -- make sure kids know the consequences for their actions, develop some sort of code of conduct for adults, administer some sort of local court so such behavior stays out of the justice system -- fail to even acknowledge what really happened.

Over the years, the young people of Northbrook have developed a form of ritualized violence to initiate each other. The hazing ritual was accepted by participants and onlookers. It is rather unusual behavior, isn't it?

Before the Oct. 29 forum, the task force needs to answer these questions. Only then will it be able to formulate specific measures that can be taken to address what went wrong.

Those lists that GBS is having made crack me up. My high school had the same thing - and I can tell you for a fact many of the parents who signed those bought kegs or worse for their children.

That's exactly what I thought when the sheet came home. From what I hear, at least in past years, many of the kids involved in the student to student group (which is supposed to be kids who pledge not to drink or take drugs--and is the group compiling the list) were some of the biggest partiers in the school. I guess it was a way to fool mom and dad!

Sugar and Spice, if you're reading this (and can answer)

Did Marnie Holz try to rush? Did anyone take her?

oh how true that is! i was part of a group like that... out of about the 30 members of my class that were a part of it, you can probably count on one hand the amount of people that kept that oath. it's actually pretty sad. i remember, right before graduation, the administration found out about a party that about half the members of this group were at, and we all were called out of class and were yelled at and stuff.. for prom weekend we all rent houses on the cape and they threatened to call the cops and tell them to patrol the areas that we were in because there would be lots of underage drinking and they wanted us to get caught.

She did try to rush -- she came through our house first rounds and we cut her immediately. I'm not sure if she ended up in a house, but my guess would be no. I'll let you guys know if I hear any updates.


Our high school had a group called Peers Educating Peers, where high school students went to the middle schools and taught students there to say no to drugs, smoking, underage drinking, and other "risky situations." It was composed mostly of partiers, too -- I think they did it because it looked good on their college applications and you got out of class to do it.

Student council kids and athletes also have to sign pledges not to drink or do drugs (student council for the whole year, athletes during their season -- but many athletes were two or three-season athletes), but most of them broke that. The problem with that policy was that they didn't have to prove you were drinking -- if you were caught at a party with alcohol at it, you were suspended from the team. I didn't drink in high school, but because of that policy I had to be careful when just hanging out with my friends at parties while they drank, because I'd get in just as much trouble.

Of course, everyone in town has an opinion about why the hazing occurred. One of the trains of thought relates to this. In our district, the administrators tend not to involve the police when they are aware of illegal activity. The thought is that the kids are young, they make mistakes and don't deserve the long term effects of a criminal record. The biproduct of this approach is that the students think that they are above the law.

The solution being discussed is to create a teen court, with teens being judged by their peers. Apparently there are three communities in the northern suburbs of Chicago who've gone this route. The teen crimes would not get lost in the shuffle of the Cook County court system, which includes Chicago. And while consequences would be real, they might not have the same permanent effect on their lives. It's been said that the battery charges related to the GBN incident would not qualify for such a court because of the injuries that were inflicted. But the thinking is that if kids are punished for less serious actions, things might not escalate to the extent they did on May 4 because the community would have established a clearer definition of right and wrong.

Another concept being discussed is a focus on community civility. There are a lot of residents with high pressure jobs who are accustomed to getting their way. People aren't very nice. So the task force wants to teach the adults how to behave so that we demonstrate respect to our offspring.

Our high school played GBN last Friday--we were the home team. There seems to be a fair amount of animosity against GBN at GBS. Security was incredible. GBS students weren't allowed near the visitors' bleachers and the GBN kids weren't allowed on our side. There were several police cars at the game. Some of the GBS boys were wearing homemade tshirts saying things like "something smells fishy around here". It was very sad. It reminded me of some of my son's hockey games when we played in some of the "rougher" suburbs. And we lost (no surprise there).

We had that stuff at my HS, and it was a total crock. The parents of the biggest partiers organized this "Project Graduation" thing to prevent people from going out and drinking and driving after graduation. It was supposed to be this high-handed moral statement, but we all knew it was a joke.

As a former high school teacher and now junior high teacher, I am amazed at how much meaner kids continue to get. I feel there is no excuse for such craziness and coldheartedness in the name of so called "fun".

No one ever hazed at my high school. I was involved in powderpuff, but it was a game, just that. The guys dressed up as the cheerleaders. It was fun. No one was beaten or humiliated. I have done some stupid things in the name of fitting in when younger, but always tried never to hurt anyone.

I would love to hear an update on whether Marnie or any of the other girls got into a house in college. I believe in second chances in life, but I really hope they have to experience some of the hurt ( not physical) they have caused by being such brats. I would hope no self respecting house would take them.

Do you know if any of the other houses cut her yet? How did she end up rushing in the first place?

http://216.40.249.192/s/cwm/cwm/uhoh2.gif

She probably filled out a form from Panhellenic, paid some money, and showed up. There's no law that says you can't rush because you did something naughty. :p

Mom Who Bought Beer got Probation
 

The thing about this article that gets me is that she is ordered to do 14 hours of community service and she hasn't done it yet (all the kids have). Being a mom in this district, I'm sure I've put in lots more than 14 hours for the community since May!

Mom gets probation for buying GBN teens beer
BY IRV LEAVITT
STAFF WRITER

Cook County Circuit Court Judge Timothy Chambers meted out sentences to a few more of the defendants in the May 4 Northbrook hazing incident last week, including one of the adults charged with helping supply the beer.

Christine Neal, 49, one of two women accused of providing the alcohol that fueled the now-notorious Cook County Forest Preserve melee, received no jail time. None of the other 12 convicted so far have, either. Millions around the world saw videotaped clips of Glenbrook North High school seniors throwing excrement and other substances at younger students in Chipilly Woods, and then beating some of them.

Neal, of Northbrook, pleaded guilty Friday to providing liquor to minors, and Chambers sentenced her to one year of probation and 14 days community service. She left the courtroom without comment.

Her son Dominic Vargas, 18, also of Northbrook, who was accused of carrying the beer to the Chipilly Woods scene, and of battery in relation to attacks on the juniors, didn't plead guilty. Like several defendants before him, he was allowed to plead not guilty while stipulating to the facts of the cases as presented by prosecutors, which will likely allow him to expunge the conviction from his record. He was sentenced to one year of court supervision, and 50 hours of community service.

Also Friday, Jamie Kozin, 18, stipulated to the facts of her battery charges, and received nine months court supervision and 60 hours community service. Valerie Udell, 18, was sentenced to one year supervision and 50 hours o community service.

Sept. 24, Tanya Dionissopoulos, 17, stipulated to her battery charges, and was sentenced to one year of court supervision, 50 hours of community service, and drug and alcohol evaluation.

All but Neal maintained that they had already performed all of their community service, which consists of volunteering at nursing homes, hospitals and other facilities.

More Consequences
 

It seems like maybe the civil penalties will have more impact that the criminal charges...

Parents to pay teens injured during hazing

The parents of "several" Glenbrook North High School graduates involved in the May 4 "powder puff" incident have agreed to pay damages to the families of three now-senior students physically injured in the melee, an attorney for the students said.

Attorney Rollin Soskin said the parents decided to pay $2,500 to each of his three clients. Under the Illinois Parental Responsibility Act, parents can be held liable for a maximum of $2,500 when their children damage property or injure someone.

Soskin said Tuesday he plans to go to court to seek that $7,500 amount from parents of about 20 Glenbrook North graduates if the adults don't agree to the settlement.

Terms call for the settling parents and their children "to cooperate with us by providing us prompt and truthful information" about the hazing, Soskin said, and for his clients to forego further legal action against the settling parents' students.

Soskin maintains those offered the settlement contributed to his clients' injury by letting their children help plan the event or participate in the hazing. The settlement has not been offered to the dozen or so teens Soskin claimed physically harmed his clients during the melee.

Task Force Draft Report
 

The village manager of Northbrook and the superintendant of the Glenbrook schools have posted the hazing task force's draft report. Here's the link:

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/Distr...port102203.pdf

It's a 63 page document that offers options, but doesn't make any conclusions. I would expect this work to generate further dialogue in the community. There were some strong words for the parents who tried to help their offspring avoid consequences for their actions (the Holz family?).

For those interested in how communities might respond to problems related to hazing, the report is probably worthwhile reading.

And for those of you who were curious...
 

Marnie Holz actually got a bid to a house at the UW. I don't know what that house was thinking, although they are comprised of ladies from the East Coast who may not have heard about it, but still...I'd be scared if I was a PNM from the area going through and she rushed me. :rolleyes:

As Kath said, Marnie Holz did receive a bid. I know she was cut early by every sorority I talked to, but I didn't talk to girls in every one, and this was one of those that I didn't. There are a number of factors at play that might have led to them giving her a bid, one being, as Kath said, that they didn't know. That's all I'm going to say on the subject, since any more could give away the identity of the sorority.

And no, I'm not going to tell you which one it is. Not even in a PM. :p