I'm sorry Rudey but I don't buy the arguement that Israel's response isn't disproportionate... one only has to look at the numbers:

How many rockets has Hezbollah fired vs How many bombs/shells/rockets Israel has fired...
-or-
How many Lebanese have been killed vs How many Israelis have been killed...
-or-
How many Lebanese have been wounded vs How many Israelis have been wounded
-or-
How much infrastructure/property damage has bee caused by Hezbollah vs how much damage has been caused by Israel...
-or-
How much land has been sprayed with defoliants by Hezbollah vs how much has been sprayed by Israel

If you can point to one of these and say that the numbers are even close... then hey you just might have an arguement - but I don't see that happening.

You must be kidding me. Since when are wars fought based on proportion. Proportional response is a terribly useless military tactic which becomes even more so considering the enemy in this situation. So when Al Qaeda destroyed the WTC and hit the Pentagon, we should only go in and kill that many people, and do that amount of damage? This is not an eye for an eye situation for Israel. They are in a position where strong force is REQUIRED. They have to go in and eliminate these terrorists, whose goals include the complete destruction of Israel. Can you imagine Americans' outrage if we went in, killed a couple thousand terrorists after 9/11, then packed up and headed back, with Al Qaeda still alive and well? What do you expect Israel to do? Should they just react in a proportional manner, only to wait around for more rockets to hit their cities? The enemy Israel is dealing has no respect for human life, and the only reasonable course of action for Israel is to protect it's citizens by eradicating the terrorist organizations which threaten it.

A proportional response for Israel would be for it to do to its unfriendly neighbors exactly what those neighbors would have done to Israel.

A proportional response would include the eradication of those countries.

So no, fortunately for these terrorist rogue states, Israel's response has not been proportional. If Israel showed the same lack of care for human life, there would be no conflict for us to debate.

Sigh... this is what I hated the most about being the UN guy stuck in the middle. It seems in every recent conflict that each side sees itself as the embodyment of justice/good/truth/right, while at the same time reviling their enemies as being unrepentantly evil... The problem is that each side (and their supporters) begin to believe their own propaganda, and begin to lose sight of the fact that they are fighting and killing other human beings.

Yes Israel has the right to both defend itself, and strike back at the terrorists that attacked her... however that doesn't mean that Israel has the freedom or right to bomb the living-sh-t out of Lebanon to "teach them a lesson", nor does Israel have the right to turn the south into a wasteland. Israel declared war on Hezbollah, not Lebanon...

Now I'm sure you hear a lot of crap about Lebanon being a "rogue-state" or a "terrorist-state", which is a nice rallying cry for the warmongers... to bad it falls far short of the truth. Afterall this is the country that we here in the West were applauding for it's secular and intigrated Christian/Mulsim society that was embracing Democracy and freedom. Yes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, but that is in reality it's secondary function or goal ~ truth be told it is one of the more effective social support and security groups in the Middle East... one only needs to look into it's social support programs, schools, hospitals, pension funds, and children/elderly care network to see it's overall impact on Lebanese culture.

Now if one had bothered to read any of the intelligence briefings or primers (CIA, JANES, CSIS) on Hezbollah's place in Lebanon over the past 4 years, one might have been struck by the diminishing power of the militant wing of Hezbollah, and the increasing power of the social/political factions. So one can also assume that the militant-wing's power is supreme now as many Lebanese look to them (and not the government) for a way to strike back at the Israeli's bombing them... in short Israel has changed the direction that Hezbollah, and perhaps Lebanese society as a whole, creating a reborn and re-energized terrorist group bent on the destruction of Israel.

Now as for comparisons to 9/11 and the laughable scenarios tossed forth in an effort to weaken my observations... how very Republican of y'all, invoking 9/11 to counter any arguement :rolleyes:

However if you want me to throw back a counter example, why not look at the IRA and Britian's response to them? When Lord Mountbatten was assassinated or when a platoon of Paras were ambushed did Britain turns around and bomb the living-sh-t out of Ireland? No. Instead the went after the only the terrorists... did the IRA have political seats in Ireland? Yep (heck they had one seat in the British Parliament). Did that mean that Ireland was a terrorist state, or supporter of terrorism? No. Most of the funding for the IRA came from criminal acts and sponsors abroad. Why didn't Britain go after the IRA cells and support in Ireland with massive military might? Because they didn't want to empower their enemies, nor did they want to create a plethora of eager new recruits, nor did they want to create another generation outraged by British "atrocities"... in short the British looked at the big picture and the long term goal of what they wanted to accomplish ~ something perhaps Israel could have learned from.

I have an argument because you cannot even address a single point I've made.

Using your logic Israel should destroy Lebanon and kill everyone in it because that's the equivalent of its enemies' goals.

And using your logic, if 10,000 people are killed in Israel, the Israelis should walk into Lebanon and kill 10,000 random people.

Israel attacked roads and airports so that Hezbollah wouldn't bring in more weapons from Syria and Iran and so it wouldn't move the kidnapped soldiers into Lebanon.

And at the end of the day, Hezbollah didn't kill less Israelis because they wanted to.

But then again Rob, given that you don't consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization, I'm sure it's easy for you to completely ignore all that and use that faulty logic.

-Rudey

It would be great if you could stop taking swipes at America as well.

-Rudey

You're right, Israel's situation isn't like 9/11. Its probably worse. Sure we as Americans have terrorism in the back of our minds, somewhere, but for Israelis, it is in the forefront, EVERYONE has been touched by it, and everyone must live in constant fear of it. Also, the IRA example is terrible. You act as though the British simply singled out the terrorists...Forgetting the fact that they beat, killed and spit on the Irish in the north, regardless of whether they were actually members of IRA or the PIRA. Now if Israel began going in and beating up everybody who was thought to sympathize with Hezbollah, that would be similar to some of what the British did in the North.

Ah yes because that's exactly what the British did :rolleyes: That the Brits "beat, killed, and spit on the Irish in the North"... first off if that were true it would have been entirely counterproductive to do that to the population that they were "protecting"... or do you mean that they singled out the Catholics as IRA sympathizers? 'Cause if that's the case it also falls far short of the truth as well ~ the vast majority (something like 83%) of asssaults or violent confrontations didn't involve the Brits but rather Protestant terrorists going after Catholics... and Catholic terrorists going after Protestants. I do find it interesting that you are using the exact same arguements (degredation and oppression of people) as a justification for a terror group that the Palestinians are... interesting how perspectives can change isn't it?

Yes, that is what they did. If you're under some impression that the Orange and Ulster volunteer groups worked completely independent of the UK, you're sorely mistaken. To say the British were at all humane in their treatment of Irish Catholics is simply untrue. Everyone knows about the controversy surrounding the UDR, including the intimidation of catholics who originally supported them. Much of my family is from Antrim, and as protestants even we have trouble justifying the actions by both the protestant groups and the British military. UK in the 1990s attempted to save face by deeming the ulster groups as terrorist orgs, but it clearly did not make up for decades of mistreatment. Note, I don't support the IRA or their actions, but to say the British were never aggressors or violators is simply untrue. As to your comments regarding the Palestinians, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. If you are comparing the IRA to the PLO, you're sorely mistaken. While Irish terrorism did kill civilians, it was rarely, if ever, aimed at civilians. The Palestinians however, continually target civilians. IRA attacks were most often aimed at UDR and RUC personel, along with civilians who worked in coordination with them. While I don't view this as acceptable, it is quite different from a Hamas suicide bomber walking into a crowded restaurant or city bus. Truly civilian death was an unfortunate byproduct of IRA action, while it is the centerpiece of middle eastern terror organizations. People often forget what Israel is going through. This is not a Northern Irish situation where they simply care about land, or independence. The IRA wanted a unified Ireland, and truly cared about the welfare of the Irish people, despite their violent tactics. The middle eastern organizations Israel deals with do not view Israel as anything more than animals to be slaughtered. Simply put, they do not wish to be left alone, they long for the eradication of Israel, and often the eradication of the Jewish people.

Interesting... an IRA/terrorist apologist... how'd have thought I'd see a that. To compare the IRA to the PLO is rather apt - because they shared both methods and training... and lets not forget that the IRA were the innovators of the IED, the sucide/homicde car loaded with explosives... face it the IRA specifically targeted civilians in Ireland and the UK, as well as killing those they saw as "collaborators", to claim otherwise is deluding yourself. Now if you doubt me on this I'd recommend you pick up the "A Secret History fo the IRA" by Ed Moloney... which was a required text for my Modern Irish History course.

As for the UVF/UDA or the other Prod terror groups... I hold even more contempt for them, and especially for their spiritual leader "Rev" Ian Paisley (the a--hole that was dragged out of the EU meeting for his celebration of JPII's death) - and the orgs. that support him (like Bob Jones Univserity). While the IRA terrorism was primarily politically motivated (a "free" Ireland) the Prods was religiously motivated ~ one only has to look at the speaches or press releases from each side to figure that out.

Its all well and good to reduce the Middle East to a Black & White or Good vs Evil picture... but that doesn't fit the truth of the conflict at all. To simply assume that say Hezbollah's sole goal is the eradication of Israel would to be grossly over-simplfying their motivations - yes you have some of the pure hate-mongers within the group, but you also have those seeing themselves as fighting for Palestinian freedom, others fighting to regain family lands lost to Israel in 1948, others seeing themselves as the resistance or defenders against Israeli agression, and still others who are in it for purely mercanary reasons. In short the Hezbollah is as, if not more, complex that the IRA was - who at various times were Nationalists, Fascists, Communists, Anarchists, Criminal, or Sectarian terrorists; to reduce them to simply a Catholic terrorist group is equally deluded...

Ah yes because Israel has never done something like this in the past :rolleyes:

Oh wait... that's right the Qana Massacre ten years ago... you know when the IDF shelled a UN outpost harbouring Lebanese civlians fleeing the Israeli retalatory strikes aimed at destroying Hezbollah (hmm deja vu?)... except in this case the IDF shelled the compound with anti-personal artillery shells (proximity fuses) which resulted in the death of 106 civilians and the wounding of 100 more. An investigation was launched into that incident as well... an investigation that concluded it was a deliberate attack...

So pardon me if I don't have any faith in an investigation of the IDF... because I'm sure once again the IDF will quitely protect the war-criminals in its ranks:mad:

While I agree in part with your statements about the IRA, the idea that that blanketly targeted civilians is false. If by civilians, you mean co-conspirators, informants, etc, then yes, they targeted those. However, it is nothing like these Middle Eastern terror orgs which target people they know nothing about, other than that they are Jewish or Western. If you believe the IRA made regular practice of targeting protestants simply because of their faith, you're again mistaken. While the violence appeared sectarian, and on some level may be, it was not solely due to their faith. It was the simply fact that much of their opposition happened to be protestant. Obviously religion was a dividing line, but there was no desire to destroy all protestants or all of England. I'm sure hatred led few to wish for that, but the efforts did not indicate that, but rather a struggle to be left alone. Also, you pegging me as an IRA apologist is just stupid, as I previously stated I did not condone their tactics, but simply did not fall victim to the propaganda produced by the British government.

Now, regarding Israel...you're right again, much of the middle east conflict is not black/white, but some of it is. Let me ask you this, given your distaste for Israel and your apparent support for their attackers, what would you suggest they do? You mentioned some sort of proportional reaction, is that what you expect? If so, is Israel then not failing to protect its citizens? Should they merely wait for attacks to respond, and have their people live in constant fear? I'm sure there are many, if not a majority, of middle eastern muslims who do not wish for the eradication of Israel and the Jews. However, Israel is threatened by terrorist groups which wish for exactly those things. I think a fundamental disagreement people have regarding this issue involves islam itself. While I believe there are many muslims who are peace loving people, I do not consider the Islamic faith to be peaceful. This isn't to say that violence is the original intent of the faith, but I believe that most involved in the Islamic faith, especially in the region, view Jews as subhuman. I, and others, believe that they(Arabs and Iranians) are taught and fully believe that Jews are their natural enemy. Because of this, many people in the world view the Islamic faith as dangerous, and I think that in today's atmosphere it is. Once again, this is not necc reflective on what the intent of the faith is, but given its leaders and popular sentiment, I believe it to be true. I truly believe that Israel is a country whose sole desire is to be left alone. They have not shown anything to the contrary. They are surrounded by countries who hate them, and are thus placed in the precarious role of protecting its citizens at all times, without rest. Like any violent prolonged situation, there will be incidents where Israel is overly violent or inhumane. However, the large majority of their action is defensive, and if offensive, it is only to protect themselves in the future.

Evidently you not only can't respond to points I make but you also post irrelevant stories.

In 1996 Hezbollah again attacked Israel and murdered and wounded Israelis (more Israeli casualties than Lebanese by the way).

Operation Grapes of Wrath was launched to fire back into Lebanon. After intense shelling from Lebanon, Israel shot back 15 minutes later.

Israel hit around a UN facility where civilians were and some died. Israel apologized. The UN said they cannot rule out the possibility that it was accidental.

The UN should concern itself more with the fact that on their watch, Hezbollah has brought in over 10,000 rockets into the country and is armed better than most military units in the region. They should be concerned with the fact that Israel is not in Lebanon and gets attacked routinely, has its citizens murdered and kidnapped.

Rob perhaps you should start concerning yourself with the Arab terrorists that use civilians as cover, instead of constantly bashing anything having to do with Israel or America.

-Rudey

Ah yes the UN Security Council dropped the language stating that it was an intentional or dileberate attack, as well as making any condemnation at the insistance of the US... I gotta say I'm ever so surprised that the US would take an anti-UN pro-Israel stance :rolleyes:

Fair enough Rudey - please point out the number of times, and casualties, that Hezbollah (the "evil terrorists") has attacked a UN post... as say opposed to the number of times the Israelis (the "good guys") have done so...

When you wrap your mind around that - then you might understand why I condemn the "good guys" for yet again F-cking attacking the UN:mad:

Oh and nice to see that the IDF has refused any interviews or information to be forthcoming in the UN investivgation (again)... but it's going to be bloody hard to explain how Israel "accidently" dropped 3 laser-guided "bunker-buster
bombs... hopefully this time the IDF won't escape charges for a war-crime.

I'm sure the airforce folks on the site might be able to shed light on how improbible it is to claim this attack as "accidental" given the facts emerging.

If someone murders your mother and then offers you bread afterwards, I'm sure you'd see them as a very giving person and all is well huh?

Hezbollah is classified as a terrorist organization around the world, but I'm sure they'd appreciate your support.

-Rudey