hehe, I can tell you go to law school :D

you rock.

*another pointless post from Rissa*

I was thinking the same thing...legal minds all think alike!

Geez, I'm just saying, it doesn't seem like it's worth going to court over. Also, fraternities are a little different than sororities. What seems like hazing to us, doesn't seem all that bad to guys. I know that if anyone in my house were getting hazed like that, we'd get them in trouble so quick, but we're girls. Guys get made to do push ups and they feel it builds character. If they don't, then they just quit, but most guys stick it out, cause they don't see the problem with it. If they were getting physically harmed though, that's a completely different issue, and one that I feel is definitely worth fighting against. But that just isn't the case here.

Ok, on a slightly different note, Kevin is a freaking hottie.

That is all.

i definitely agree with you...fraternities definitely differ from sororities when it comes down to hazing. all i am saying...and if it seemed directed towards you it wasnt...i was using "you" in my previous post as a "you" in general...but anyways...all i am saying is its hard to make a statement, unless you have actually been in the position of being hazed. to someone on the outside it may seem to be something so tiny and not offensive...but to the person bein hazed no matter how little the thing was they had to do...it could really make or break them. which i guess is sort of the point...to have them MAKE it stronger and bond together, i dunno...i just honestly dont see the point. i have bonded plenty well with my sisters without being hazed!

Did you watch Camp Jim?
 

I also enjoyed the Camp Jim episode following FL2. It's about some friendly guy who runs a cheerleading camp.

Now, there, is screaming in the little cheerleaders faces, forced exercises (including a strange sit-up left-lift-split combo that looks tough), and threats.

It's originally on at 4:00 daily, I think.

i watch that!!!

I don't know if it's the same there, but the unfriendly nickname of duck was for the fraternity Delta Upsilon. I have seen quite few arguments break out over that one with the clueless pledge being the one to say the name out in public trying to prove himself to his other buddies to show how cool he is. Off topic but did you guys see how narrow Robbie's body was when he had on the grey tee shirt? He looked like he had bound his midsection.

Strange feeling Im going to get lynched...
 

Okay, we all -apparently- agree that hazing is horrible. That it is bad and whatnot. Yet, hazing goes on in nearly every organized group: football, greeks, Military, etc.

Basically, my chapter doesn't haze all that much, according to our definition. Our GHQ's definition includes everything from scavenger hunts to making the pledges participate in Buy A Phi.

My question: If not for some form of hazing, how will fraternities differentiate between the ones who SHOULD be here, and the ones that shouldn't. Im not saying "Kick the shit out of that guy and if he can still stand, he's worthy to join us." I could never do that and then call the guy a brother 8 weeks later.

I AM saying that Pledgeship should be 60% and 40% rough. Hazing nowadays is just another victim of the social predication America is currently going through. Everyone is leaping at the chance to take a PC stance and point fingers. As George Carlin states: "Back in the '60s, you could leave a child in a hot car for an hour while you ran into the store. Nowadays, if I leave my dog in the car for 5 minutes, I'll be lynched on the 6 o'clock news."

Men were built to be tough and to endure a great deal of mental stress. Not to be babied and gently led to manhood. That is one of the reasons we are genetically 20% stronger than females. Im not saying females are weak, btw. As far as the "Sensitive Man of the 21st Century," I dont buy it.

I treat my girlfriend like gold. Im not an asshole. Im not an elitist. Yet, I may or may not have went through my hazing.

I know I may sound like an asshole saying all these, but I believe some hazing should exist in every fraternity. Not the kind where we kick the shit out of you, but the kind in which you are under enormous pressure. The kind which forces you to think under stress, balance your time and bond with your fellow pledge brothers.

So....let the flaming begin.... :-)

haha, thats what these law schools want to do to us!!

:p

Re: Strange feeling Im going to get lynched...
 

Back in the '60s, everybody did hazing - some bad, some really bad - and if something happened the chapter got no-socials probation, maybe no intramurals, for a semester or year. Fraternity alumni were in many prominent positions - on campus and off - and college presidents, who wanted success and a long tenure, left athletics and fraternities alone.

Now, if a hazed pledge is hospitalized or his mommy finds out, or if a former pledge/member/girl friend reports hazing, it will be nationally publicized (do you remember the powderpuff football girls hazing in a Chicago suburb), and your national office and your student affairs office will fight to see which can kick you off campus quickest.

If your "enormous pressurre" and "stress" gets your chapter suspended, the lawyers will go after you and the individual brothers. If hazing is a crime in your state, and it probably is, then student affairs will turn the info over to the state and local police, and you, your individual brothers, your chapter, and your national face real criminal charges, fines, and big-boys jail time.

I urge you to look at the other threads about Fiji at Santa Barbara (a copy of a 29-page lawsuit by a hazee's parents is available at the campus newspaper site), DU at Nebraska, and a lot of others in the Risk Management Section. Go to Google News and search for "hazing", and you'll see the publicity, law suits, police investigations, and jail time college, athletic, and high school hazers are getting. It's scary what happens to individuals who think "they did it to me when I was a pledge (or rookie), and now its my turn ... we all went through it."

You said "Everyone is leaping at the chance to take a PC stance and point fingers." These finger pointers have ALL the power right now. They may be pointing at you.

Probably some GC reader saw your post, and will assume that Phi Delt at Kent State hazes. They'll notify Oxford, and by Monday Oxford's hazing police will probably be at your chapter meeting.

They, and I, want you to have a strong and demanding pledge period, based on the principles in your officer manuals - not on hazing.

If you are hazing, they, and I, want your chapter closed before your actions bring down the Gods of bad publicity upon all of us.

I think you misread what I wrote. Im not saying that we should "haze," Im saying we should haze. The definition of hazing is too broad, and ridiculous. Any mental stress is considered hazing. Scavenger hunts. Etc.

You can think Im the antichrist, I dont frankly care. Phi Delt doesnt haze their pledges, in the sense that most people have. I never had a hand laid on me. I never thought "when Im active, Ill get to do this to them." Every, and I MEAN everything the pledges do, I do with them. Im with them on every mission. I clean with them whenever that have to clean. I attended their New Member Convocation.

The reason? It reminds me of what it was like to be a pledge and how much fun it was. So don't attempt to nail us to a cross of generalization or stereotypes.

"If you are hazing, they, and I, want your chapter closed before your actions bring down the Gods of bad publicity upon all of us."

Thats a pretty ignorant statement. You want our chapter closed? I would never wish that on ANY chapter, of ANY fraternity. That is akeen to calling an african american the n-word. To have our chapter shut down is to shut down every memory, every legacy, every legend of a chapter. Thats pretty fucked up that you'd say something like that, but whatever.

I'll copy/paste my quote from the other thread here because I thought we were starting a new one. ;)

i expected to be hazed when i joined my frat, i woulda been pissed and thought the actives were pussies if they hadnt. I wanted paddleing and pushups, not punch and pie !

"Tell them we'll have punch and pie. "
"We're not going to have punch and pie!"
"But more people will come if they think we have punch and pie."

Sorry. I just couldn't resist... ;)