I'd prefer not to make an assumption about the character of a person who got caught up for a single mistake drinking at a party at which there were so many students charged with underage drinking that it made the paper.

Kids do stupid things. That doesn't mean that they're beyond redemption or can't learn from a single mistake.

ETA: this is directed to AnchorAlumna's comment about my earlier response to cheerio. Greekdee's comment describes a whole other level of crazy.

Well, that's really not what I said.

But a lane swerve --

I don't necessarily feel that school district staff -- potentially including teachers, principals, and even guidance counselors -- all know FERPA well themselves (understandably, since they set out to be teachers, not lawyers).

At least that was my experience during my only encounter with FERPA -- I used FERPA, on behalf of my child, to obtain copies of emails (containing negative info) that were swapped between a few teachers. While my son was informed by a coach/teacher that he (the teacher) sent these to other teachers and administrators (pertaining to a situation in his class), the coach ignored my request to be included (I was never informed of the incident in question, either, other than by my child).

As per FERPA, these emails were subject to becoming part of my child's educational record, and not considered protected (or private) communication between staff.

The emails were illuminating, and the problem was easily resolved (I wasn't after punishment or legal vengence -- just wanted to solve the perceived problem). I didn't file a complaint or involve an attorney (the school apparently involved their own board attorney to interpret the law, as the principal was reluctant to release these). I don't know what administration said to the teachers regarding the content of the emails. However, a school-wide FERPA inservice was held the following month -- which was a good thing, for their own protection.

I don't claim to be an expert on FERPA, but while I "don't have any idea what I'm talking about," as you contend, apparently some teachers and administrators know even less than I, and are in need of training.

One way or another, if I was a high school guidance counselor, and Mildred A. Lum called requesting info about senior girls, I would err on the side of protecting the students' privacy. I would advise Mildred to obtain transcripts from the girls themselves.

I would need a compelling reason to contact a chapter regarding a PNM's past.

^But that would probably do it. :eek:

While it may be true that some orgs don't hold a rec in the same regard as others, within the orgs that do, there are still regional differences. If there was an actual valuation on it as adpiucf refers to, if nobody has a rec, then it is a level playing field. If everybody has a wonderful rec, it is a level playing field. At these very competitive schools, I'm sure just having a rec doesn't put a young woman on a level playing field, because the quality of the rec matters.

Nobody wants to get too far into membership selection but I would hazard a guess that, like college or job recommendation letters, the quality of the opinion within the rec becomes obvious and important. I've only written recs for young women I know personally that I could absolutely say would contribute greatly to ANY organization. If I wrote one that was less gushing, it would be obvious.

I went to a school where we knew what they were, but rarely received them. We were always asked about them by traveling consultants "Where are your recs?" The reality is, here, in this state, sorority membership is not valued by the general society. It is not required to get into the Junior League or be in the higher social circles. In fact, nobody really cares about social circles in this area. It is not a source of pride, it tends to be something you have to defend.

In the past two decades, it was nearly impossible to find someone walking around the U of Michigan campus in letters. There were these big huge houses with letters on them. You never saw people wearing letters though. It was NOT a source of pride. They didn't want to defend their choice all the time. That has been changing in this decade, and that's a good thing! But, all most people know up here is what they see in the media- hazing and drinking. Because of that, people don't talk about their greek experiences much outside of their group.

Even deeper than that though... girls don't have recs up here because they have no clue that they might want to go through recruitment until they're at school, see the Greek tables at the student org fairs, go to some Meet the Greek events around campus to get the free food and then say "Hey, that looks like it might be fun to do" three days before recruitment starts. They don't sign up 4 months in advance and move into the dorms early. If they did, nobody would be there. They show up to orientation and register. When would they possibly get recs? Being greek is rarely on their radar before they get to school. As much as I talked it up to Hypo's friends, the one who did go through (other than Hypo) didn't even tell me until after first rounds and it was too late for me to do a rec! She's an Alpha Gam anyway, but still...

We say this because at the schools we have noted in another thread, for a PNM to be in the driver's seat (as much as she can) they ARE a must. It doesn't matter if you think they are bogus and unnecessary, it doesn't matter if I think they are unnecessary, the fact is that they ARE. If they are not needed, and in some cases not even recognized, at other schools, then the PNM does not have to worry herself obtaining them. For the most part, PNM classes at the large, southern schools are ginormous, and recs. are required, and enough girls think it is worth the effort that they comply. If they didn't, I think the #'s registered for recruitment would not continue to rise, as they have been.

It's like someone thinking that references for college admission or a job are stupid and unnecessary. After all, the person conducting the interview should know enough to make a good decision based on the actual interview and the applicants transcript and resume'. Yet applicants are still expected to supply both for any professional job they fill out an application for and if they don't, woe to them.

I guess what I am trying to say is, most sororities up north haven't seen a recommendation and don't know what to do with them(from what has been reported here on GC), and that's okay. I am not going to tell them that they are wrong. But if a PNM is headed south, and especially if she is attending a large university that has a competitive recruitment, she had better invest some time and round up at least one recommendation for each chapter on campus. If that chapter doesn't want to use the rec., they can shred it. But it is better to be prepared than to be sorry later.

I would add that for some sororities, it is a national requirement that each new member have a rec. before she participates in the formal pledging ceremony.

I'm not saying it's not true, just that if we stop saying it, maybe the number of girls getting recs to every single chapter will drop to a realistic number and they will therefore not be as important to the process. If it's just a box to be checked, then they should be dumped. If you want them to be used for a valid purpose then the threat of near death if you don't have them should stop. If after a reasonable search among grown ups you actually know you don't know anyone who is Greek, then that should be that. But until practicality and logic are brought into the process I would tell any girl to beat every bush for any stranger who can recite the Greek alphabet. But I still stand on my opinion that this practice is ridiculous and abusive.

eta/or go to school in the north.

Exactly. I think I may have posted something similar to this earlier in the thread. It's just not the same up north as it is down south. In many cases, the word "sorority" doesn't enter a girl's vocabulary until she's at least a few weeks into her freshmen year of college.

I wouldn't consider this exactly the same. When obtaining recommendations to attend school or to get a job, you're soliciting those recommendations from people you know and from people who know you. On the other hand, in some cases, PNMs are obtaining recs to join a sorority from people they've never even met before.

I think the point was more "you have to do some homework", and that's fine, but one of the very worst things about recs, IMO, is that PNM's who aren't in the know are constantly told they do NOT have to obtain them.

I don't think this is correct or maybe DG interprets this differently than other organizations do. AOII does NOT require a recommendation to be initiated. I know this for a fact. New Members are voted in by the group, so I think this is probably sufficient to maintain any single-sex status, exclusivity requirements mandated by the federal government.

I'd say a fair amount of what AGDee said above applies to the older chapter, Big Ten (13?) campuses. There are absolutely women who know they want to participate in FR before they come to school, but I'd say it's less than 50 percent, probably closer to 30 (at least, at the 3 schools I've been involved with in the past decade).
That said, just because a campus isn't on the list of RECS REQUIRED, doesn't mean recs are uncommon. I don't think it's out of line for me to say that two years ago, every single woman on our bid list had a rec written for her prior to recruitment. Now, that was unusual, but I'd say last year, probably 2/3rds of the bid list had recs. Again, that brings into question what quality of recs did each woman have? I'm sure it varied. But even this Yankee ;) knows what is a blah/lame/waste of time rec, what is a good rec, and what is a great rec. Thankfully I have yet to receive a "cannot recommend" rec.
There were certainly ladies with great recs who did not make it to later rounds and (in normal years) there were obviously ladies who did not have recs that made it to the bid list.
I just want to make it clear that, at the old, Midwestern campuses & chapters that I've worked with, we did receive recs, we did use them, and we did weigh them individually along with all the other info we had on the PNMs. I'm sure it varies from school to school, organization to organization and chapter to chapter, but I (and I believe, the actives) found them useful.
Just my perspective :)

I was also thinking the "directional" MAC kinds of schools- Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, etc. Recs are a little more common in the Big 10 (13) and the Big 10 does include schools like Indiana where they are definitely more common. But then, Indiana is deferred so women have some time to be exposed to the greek system in advance too.

Serving into the lane with you -

I admit I have skimmed/skipped the posts on this FERPA issue, but did read this one. Wow. I commend you for following through on this. I was a high school teacher and can only imagine what a runaway train situation those email exchanges were.

I'm swerving still --

Thanks, gee_ess. Fortunately the vast majority of his teachers have been wonderfully supportive, and I think not at all sorry that (especially one) particular individual’s unprofessional behavior was exposed.

Since his initial bluff was to refuse to meet with me without including the entire teaching team and administrators, I complied with his wish and scheduled the meeting. I'm sure it was disconcerting to finally meet with a parent, who has your snarky emails in hand, in front of the uninvolved staff that you involved via email and insisted all attend.

Turns out he was considerably taller in email.

Perhaps the point is to figure out whether the PNM is smart enough to realize who is in her corner/really likes her, and who is just faking it for social matters? Don't know, just a thought.

Shorter/easier pledge periods DEFINITELY have a lot to do with it. In effect, it seems like the work you do getting recs, preparing for rush etc is the work you used to do during pledging.

I'm pretty sure it was violetpretty who said at her school recs weren't looked on favorably because they were seen as meddling by alums (usually not from UMD) who didn't know anything about the school or the makeup of the chapter. Most other places, no matter how laid back the rush, I doubt it would HURT, unless the girl in question turned out to be someone on the more negative side of on the fence about her. We only got a handful that I can remember. One rec from Alum of Kansas School who moved to PA? Fine. If A of KS would have had 10 of her chapter sisters write recs and send letters, the response probably would have been "forget that, this girl must think we owe her something, no I don't think so."

This most definitely was NOT me. If you could edit your post that would be awesome.

First semester reputation is definitely primary at Vandy.