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- - Arizona governor signs immigration bill (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=113142)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter (Post 1922444)

Not so sure it is unconstitutional. Isn't that the point to all this? One would have thought that Kelo vs. New London would have been deemed unconstitutional but it was upheld and all that land was taken. Has anyone seen a mall, shopping center, etc. on this land? Nothing was built and the land owners and taxpayers were the real losers. You just never know on these things.

True.

But I was responding specifically to what I understood you to be saying, which was that you saw no big deal in being stopped if, based on your looks, you were mistaken for an illegal immigrant. Did I misunderstand you?

That's what I was talking about as unconstitutional -- not the Arizona law per se, but the claim that it's not a big deal being stopped just because you look like you might be an illegal alien.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid (Post 1922453)

Businesses are being affected due to the law being passed

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Originally Posted by article

"Ours is a culture that consumes a lot -- food, drinks, clothes, you name it," said Rivas, periodically stopping to greet or wave at a customer. "If no one's out shopping, how can I afford to employ my workers? They're all here legally. What happens to them?"

They suffer just as a lot of people want them to. Taking our jobs and stuff. Speaking Spanish in the schools and stuff. Not meshing well with the existing racial and ethnic structure of this society. How are you going to walk around MY country and not know MY language?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1922459)

Of course.

A lot of people think that's just punishment for coming into "our country" in the first place. I don't care what anyone says as they try to make themselves seem like a nice and nonbigoted person, a lot of people don't like immigrants who are first or even second generation Americans PERIOD. They wish there was a way to make them all suffer. Enter this new law.

This stood out to me:

They suffer just as a lot of people want them to. Taking our jobs and stuff. Speaking Spanish in the schools and stuff. Not meshing well with the existing racial and ethnic structure of this society. How are you going to walk around MY country and not know MY language?!

Dey tork auuhr jerrrrbs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1922459)

Which is dumb anyway...they've shown that hispanic immigrants are assimilating at the same rate as prior immigrant groups. It takes a couple generations for the "melting pot" to smooth out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid (Post 1922460)

Dey tork auuhr jerrrrbs!

You know the solution....get to it!

Only if you are in the pile!

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Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 1922461)

Which is dumb anyway...they've shown that hispanic immigrants are assimilating at the same rate as prior immigrant groups.

That depends on what the "same rate" is based on. Topic for another thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 1922461)

It takes a couple generations for the "melting pot" to smooth out.

This never was and never will be a "melting pot." It is a "salad bowl"*** where you keep each vegetable in its own compartment until it's time to eat. :) Meaning, this is an extremely racially segregated society where there remains identifiability for different racial and ethnic groups (a melting pot would mean that we melt into one more homogenous group). The average American only mixes with someone of another race and ethnicity in the workforce or another non-home/non-neighborhood/non-family/non-friend environment.

Another topic for another thread. But, how people feel about race and ethnic relations is correlated with how they feel about education, employment, crime, and immigration.

***There's nothing inherently wrong with a "salad bowl." I appreciate the social differences across racial and ethnic groups and never want us to "melt together." A "salad bowl" doesn't have to mean racial and ethnic segregation, but it's no surprise that's what it means for America.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid (Post 1922464)

Only if you are in the pile!

oh no no no...I'm a girl!:p

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1922465)

That depends on what the "same rate" is based on. Topic for another thread.

This never was and never will be a "melting pot." It is a "salad bowl"*** where you keep each vegetable in its own compartment until it's time to eat. :) Meaning, this is an extremely racially segregated society where there remains identifiability for different racial and ethnic groups (a melting pot would mean that we melt into one more homogenous group). The average American only mixes with someone of another race and ethnicity in the workforce or another non-home/non-neighborhood/non-family/non-friend environment.

Another topic for another thread. But, how people feel about race and ethnic relations is correlated with how they feel about education, employment, crime, and immigration.

***There's nothing inherently wrong with a "salad bowl." I appreciate the social differences across racial and ethnic groups and never want us to "melt together." A "salad bowl" doesn't have to mean racial and ethnic segregation, but it's no surprise that's what it means for America.

I don't disagree with you...that's why I put it in quotes. My point is that people argue that hispanics immigrants don't speak English, but neither did Italian, German, Russian, etc immigrants when they first got here. Their children learned English when they went to school. You could always go back to the neighborhoods and find tons of older immigrants who could only speak the "old" language. They've always called America the "melting pot" but I agree with your "salad bowl" label. Language evens out over generations, but for many groups, they never lose their special traditions nor should they.

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Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 1922467)

oh no no no...I'm a girl!:p

And that...IS THE WHOLE POINT!

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Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 1922438)

2 - When was the last time you were actually in Maricopa County? I wouldn't categorize it as a "war zone" from my experience (we have a main office in Phoenix), although there are significant drug trafficking and other crime issues (kidnappings are primarily between illegals or the result of drug deals, from my understanding). It's bad, but not exactly on the streets in the same way as in Juarez, for example (which is drug-related anyway).

All I know is what I read in the papers... or in this case, the ABA Journal... you know.. Sheriff Joe v. The World. The bottom line is that people are getting hurt, law enforcement is out of control and people's rights are being trampled prior to this law. I'm skeptical about laying that entirely at the feet of illegal immigration. I think that the reactionary nutters in power in those parts should bear some of the blame. Things are bad, no doubt.. and as far as Juarez, Baghdad probably compares favorably with Juarez.

Quote:

Here's the problem though: this bill does absolutely nothing, at least on face, to address the crime problems associated with illegals. So illegals who are pulled over will be deported? Is this actually a substantive or functional change? Is it one "worth" the potential rights violations? I would say it's a resounding "no" - I just don't see it working in a way that functionally and significantly reduces crime.

That's a judgment call. The people of Arizona clearly think it's worth it. Whether the state can even do this is up in the air. I'll tell you one thing though -- if this bill gets upheld, a lot of young lawyers are going to be sitting for the Arizona Bar and opening up civil rights practices.

Quote:

So now, you're instituting an iffy law that will likely be expensive to enforce, yet does absolutely nothing to stem the tide of illegals. The only thing that will stem the tide is making it preferable to enter legally rather than illegally - this law is a major step in the wrong direction.

It really is a 2010 War on Drugs.

The federal government is the only entity which can facilitate immigration. And they need to fix that.

Agreed... and for all practical purposes, the War on Drugs was lost a long time ago.

Why do we care whether or not Rick Santorum supports the bill? That guys a giant douchenozzle.

Potential presidential candidates?

Good point. The 9th Circuit, not the executive will probably have the final say here.