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-   -   Race & Sororities (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=105378)

FSUZeta 05-20-2009 05:14 PM
[QUOTE=deepimpact2;1810718] My take on it is simply that racism exists in the white sororities and that it DOES affect membership.
QUOTE]

had you used the word "some" instead of "the", when referring to racism existing in white sororities, this argument might have ended many posts back. whether you meant to or not, your statement comes off as a generalization-therefore it is wrong.

oops-just saw that aopiangel and i were on the same track.

deepimpact2 05-20-2009 05:21 PM
[QUOTE=FSUZeta;1810770]
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepimpact2 (Post 1810718)
My take on it is simply that racism exists in the white sororities and that it DOES affect membership.
QUOTE]

had you used the word "some" instead of "the", when referring to racism existing in white sororities, this argument might have ended many posts back. whether you meant to or not, your statement comes off as a generalization-therefore it is wrong.

oops-just saw that aopiangel and i were on the same track.
Actually I think I made it clear some posts back that I wasn't saying that all of them are like that. DrPhil also pointed that out to another poster.
No need to take ONE line out of ALL of these posts I have written and harp on it.

deepimpact2 05-20-2009 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 1810729)
So to wrap it all up - (I've got to run to carpool). Can we agree:

1.) The op should go through recruitment if she is truly interested in investigating the NPC.

2.) Race could be an issue in membership selection. Or not. We don't know.


How's that? Let's all join hands and sing now!
I will agree that the OP needs to investigate ALL of the orgs on campus in order to make a determination about which one she wants to join.
I will agree that race is sometimes an issue in membership selection in any organization.

FSUZeta 05-20-2009 05:30 PM
when several people (me, aopiangel, ksuviolet, swtxbelle, zillini, munchkin, et al) read your words and get the understanding that you are condemning ALL, not some, npc sororities of racism, it is more than coincidence-it is YOUR poor choice of words. you don't want us to harp, then edit your statement.

DrPhil 05-20-2009 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 1810717)
that no NPC group has a racial requirement,

DUH :)

Is that what this back and forth has been about? :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure deepimpact doesn't believe that NPC sororities have racial requirements (at least not in the 21st century).

What she seems to be typing about is the informal decision making process. Aspirants are assessed on a number of subjective criteria (i.e. when people say don't discuss religion and politics during rush). Her problem is that she is making a generalization when what she's typing about seems to be more the exception than the rule. You can't make generalizations from exceptions. It is not only wrong, but it is offensive.

agzg 05-20-2009 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1810785)
Her problem is that she is making a generalization when what she's typing about seems to be more the exception than the rule. You can't make generalizations from exceptions. It is not only wrong, but it is offensive.
THANK YOU.

SWTXBelle 05-20-2009 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1810785)
DUH

Is that what this back and forth has been about? :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure deepimpact doesn't believe that NPC sororities have racial requirements (at least not in the 21st century).

She seems to believe that there are informal racial requirements.

What she seems to be typing about is the informal decision making process. Aspirants are assessed on a number of subjective criteria (i.e. when people say don't discuss religion and politics during rush).
My point about membership selection is that she is making an assumption based on what she "heard" (she says on the news, but I can't imagine anyone stating in front of a news camera that they didn't vote for a pnm because of race). It is not "hiding" behind secret membership selection - it is simply a fact that membership selection is, like ritual, kept private, for both NPC and NPHC groups. My argument all along has been that because she is not in a postion to know what membership selection is based on she is not in a position to authoritatively state that race is or might be an issue for the op. She has been quite adament in stating that it is a problem - and when asked what she is basing this on has not presented a very solid case. I have also said several times that if black or minority pnms believe the idea that their race will prevent their being given a bid and thus do not go through recruitment then the situation will never change.

I find it sadly ironic that it is the NPC members who believe the bi-racial op should go through recruitment while some NPHC members have been arguing that she will/might be subjected to racism. If we were all these horrible racists, wouldn't you think that we would be the ones arguing that she shouldn't go through NPC recruitment? I think the best case for most NPC chapters being open to women of all races is the spirited response to the idea that the op will in not be given a fair shot.

DrPhil 05-20-2009 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 1810727)
eta - Upon reflection - no. It's not the same. If, as di3 does, you are trying to argue that NPC sororities are racist, then citing NPC members who are not white is simply a support of an assertion.
No smart person would argue that NPC sororities are racist. That's just a dumb assertion. It is unfounded and cannot be proven. If that's deepimpact's claim then you all should ignore this thread, altogether.

However, the response to accused racist practices is not "I have ONE friend." The female CEO is the minority, for a number of reasons, so anyone who cites her as proof that gender discrimination and exclusion don't exist or have substantially declined in corporate America, would be a fool. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 1810727)
I'd clarify further by saying this - While Obama's election does not prove that racism does not exist, it does prove that it may be overcome. While black members of NPC groups do not prove that racism does not exist at all, it does prove that it may not be an issue in all chapters.
Bolded 1: No, it doesn't. It proves that white people don't mind "sharing" sometimes. If you piss the white people off, though, they can still take their ball and go home.

Bolded 2: Again, DUH. :)
And don't forget that our chapters aren't humanless entities. Their traditions are contingent upon the people within them. A chapter that was open to different sexual orientations when I was in school 10 years ago can be the most homophobic and heterocentric chapter now. The socially conscious people graduated and new members have taken over.

SWTXBelle 05-20-2009 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1810793)
No smart person would argue that NPC sororities are racist. That's just a dumb assertion. It is unfounded and cannot be proven. If that's deepimpact's claim then you all should ignore this thread, altogether.

However, the response to accused racist practices is not "I have ONE friend." The female CEO is the minority, for a number of reasons, so anyone who cites her as proof that gender discrimination and exclusion don't exist or have substantially declined in corporate America, would be a fool. :)



Bolded 1: No, it doesn't. It proves that white people don't mind "sharing" sometimes. If you piss the white people off, though, they can still take their ball and go home.

Bolded 2: Again, DUH. :)
And don't forget that our chapters aren't humanless entities. Their traditions are contingent upon the people within them. A chapter that was open to different sexual orientations when I was in school 10 years ago can be the most homophobic and heterocentric chapter now. The socially conscious people graduated and new members have taken over.
"Sharing"? Really? That makes me sad. But surely you aren't arguing that Obama didn't have to overcome racism - right? I will admit he had a very strong hand - he is intelligent, well- educated, what is it Joe Biden said, "clean"? :D But I don't think whites said "Oh, let's share." I still think it fair to say he overcame racism to achieve his success. It doesn't mean others don't still struggle - but even he, with all of his advantages, couldn't have been elected a mere 40 years ago. Things, thank God, change.

As to your second point - YES. And a previously racist chapter/campus can also change. That is why I want to encourage the OP to go for it. Clinging to the past is a poor excuse to not go forth boldly and create the future you wish to see.

And yes, much of my posting has been of the DUH variety. Just because you are sharp, Dr.Phil, doesn't mean all are.

DrPhil 05-20-2009 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 1810792)
My point about membership selection is that she is making an assumption based on what she "heard" (she says on the news, but I can't imagine anyone stating in front of a news camera that they didn't vote for a pnm because of race). It is not "hiding" behind secret membership selection - it is simply a fact that membership selection is, like ritual, kept private, for both NPC and NPHC groups. My argument all along has been that because she is not in a postion to know what membership selection is based on she is not in a position to authoritatively state that race is or might be an issue for the op. She has been quite adament in stating that it is a problem - and when asked what she is basing this on has not presented a very solid case. I have also said several times that if black or minority pnms believe the idea that their race will prevent their being given a bid and thus do not go through recruitment then the situation will never change.

I find it sadly ironic that it is the NPC members who believe the bi-racial op should go through recruitment while some NPHC members have been arguing that she will/might be subjected to racism. If we were all these horrible racists, wouldn't you think that we would be the ones arguing that she shouldn't go through NPC recruitment? I think the best case for most NPC chapters being open to women of all races is the spirited response to the idea that the op will in not be given a fair shot.
We both agree that she's typing about informal membership requirements. That's really neither here nor there because, while it's her burden to substantiate her claims, you all have no basis to disprove them with absolute certainty.

For what it's worth, there are NPHCers who say they wouldn't vote for a white person. It has also been said on GC. Those personal opinions can impact chapter practices. In fact, there are chapter whose members don't want white members. The next batch of members may feel differentlly. So, if a chapter(s) with people who have been at the receiving end of disadvantage in this society can make such informal judgments, so can a chapter(s) with people who have been at the receiving end of privilege in this society.

That's basic logic. Deepimpact's problem is that she tried to type definitively.

DrPhil 05-20-2009 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 1810796)
"Sharing"? Really?
Absolutely.

And thanks for reminding us all that people think that intelligent and well-educated Black men are so rare that people can't get the hell over Obama. :rolleyes: Certainly a white man wouldn't get acknowledgement over something that basic.

Thank God that I was raised by an intelligent and well-educated Black man and am surrounded by the same kind of Black men in my family and in my friendships.

Whew-----

ETA: Obama hasn't overcome racism. Racial and ethnic minorities do not overcome racism through attainment.
"What do you call a Black CEO?"
"What do you call a Black PhD?"

AOII_LB93 05-20-2009 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1810793)

Bolded 1: No, it doesn't. It proves that white people don't mind "sharing" sometimes. If you piss the white people off, though, they can still take their ball and go home.
When any person gets pissed off they may take their ball and go home, not just white people...what a stupid comment to make.

What's offensive in this thread? Calling NPCs "white sororities" and saying that it doesn't matter that membership selection is confidential.

It does matter...members can deny PNMs for whatever reason, and they may be stupid or good...but you know what? It's up to the collegiate members to choose their membership. Period. If those women choose to extend membership to Goths, Lesbians, Disabled, whatever, that is their choice to make, not anyone elses and it getting beaten to deal a million times over on this message board isn't going to change that.

DrPhil 05-20-2009 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII_LB93 (Post 1810807)
When any person gets pissed off they may take their ball and go home...
If they own a ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII_LB93 (Post 1810807)
What's offensive in this thread? Calling NPCs "white sororities"
"Predominantly white sororities" and "historically white sororities"

DrPhil 05-20-2009 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII_LB93 (Post 1810807)
what a stupid comment to make.
You should've left this part out.

You're clearly too dumb to realize what my statement means. So, shut up.

AOII_LB93 05-20-2009 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1810812)
You should've left this part out.

You're clearly too dumb to realize what my statement means. So, shut up.
Oooh, I'm so scared, someone on the internet told me to shut up!

Maybe I should take my ball and go home now.

It was a stupid comment to make, I stand by my original post.


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