Getting rid of collegians because they don't fit the image?

[33girl]

Dani, I said I was being shallow, LOL.

IP - when he says "their oldest surviving chapter" he means "their" as in the national sorority, not "their" as in DePauw.

Originally Posted by 33girl

Dani, I said I was being shallow, LOL.

IP - when he says "their oldest surviving chapter" he means "their" as in the national sorority, not "their" as in DePauw.

Loved your last sentence, btw.

*shaking my head at some of these douchebags*

[exlurker]

Originally Posted by AEPhiSierra

Am I the only one who actually believes image could have played a significant part . . . .

AEPhiSierra, I don't find it too hard to believe; the relatively recent report of DePauw's Greek commission , which is in PDF and can be accessed with a click or two from:

http://www.depauw.edu/univ/greekfacts/

mentions in its section on "Affiliation" (i.e., recruitment / intake) -- page 14 of the report, at least as it showed up on my screen -- that for the seven NPC sororities, the "stereotypes" are "pervasive," the competition among sororities is "intense," and many women are interested in joining only certain chapters. Those who do not get bids at all, or who don't get bids to the chapter(s) they want, "harbor resentment for years." The report mentions that 31 percent of Greek women at DePauw think the recruitment process "is not fair."

So I can imagine that "image" could be a huge problem in that particular Greek system. I'm not saying it was (or that it should be in a perfect world), but I think it could have been.

[seraphimsprite]

I'm not to sure why this is so hard to believe either. I think there are probably some details missing from the story, sure, but I think we all know that a national doing a reorganization because of numbers alone is certainly not unheard of. And if the chapter's national thought that a certain image was what was necessary to rebuild the chapter on that campus then they're only going to keep those members that have that image. The one thing that struck me about his post was that he mentioned that it was a chapter of "independent-minded women." The image issues may not be about appearance but may be just about commitment to the sorority and a willingness to become a more traditional chapter. On a campus with greek life as steeped in tradition as DePauw being the "independent-minded" chapter is likely going to hurt them during recruitment, so yeah, I can definitely see a national organization deciding that they needed more "traditional sorority girls" to rebuild their chapter.

And no, that doesn't mean I agree with the decision, (if that's really what happened) just that I can see it happening.

[Wine&SilverBlue]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/25/ed...04de9e&ei=5087

[archangel689]

I'm not one to go and defend this type of behavior normally, but as a brother that joined in colony status and a founding father...


IMAGE IS SO highly regarded because recruitment is so important at this time and it so incredibly difficult to find new members because you are small and everyone looks on you as weak.

Members HAD TO PUT THE GROUP before themselves in order for the group to survive! Men that didn't shave, or had bad habits with regard to showering, or had bad clothing style are asked to fix these things, and a lot of times they didn't want to! and left the group because of it... and this is perfectly acceptable...

We never asked anything of anyone that they couldn't control... and we certainly never booted anyone because of genetics... We never asked that you not be your self, we just simply asked that you be your best self.... and represent us as best you can.

I think that DZ has probably endured the same problems we did... and are attempted the same thing, and It doesn't surprise me that a large faction of their group quit, or left or was asked to leave, THIS IS COMMON FOR COLONIES AS the group figures out and ESTABLISHES its identity!!!

Unfortunately, I think that these girls, were not willing to make the needed changes to support growth of the colony!!!

Now that our colony is a chapter, and is now stablizing, I've noticed that because their reputation has been built, recruiting is FAR FAR FAR easier and the guys worry a lot less about image...

It's really hard starting a colony, especially when you're dealing with freshmen who are retarded and superficial as hell and inspect who they join with a microscope.

I saw this covered on CNN and I was outraged that this was displayed on TV like a fucking soap opera, and that pledged author needs to put a sock in it.

[GDIfly]

They weren't colonizing; they were dwindling. There is a huge difference between choosing founding members based on their ability to recruit a strong alpha class and kicking out initiated sisters because they aren't recruiting the prettiest, thinnest, whitest, and/or sluttiest girls.

[archangel689]

I don't agree with that statement. A dwindling and weak group below healthy numbers faces a lot of the same challenges a colony does... reputation being one of them. In fact, on some campuses, including mine--once a chapter drops so far in numbers it loses chapter status and, is, in affect, technically a colony, such as in this case.

I am under the impression from the CNN news report that the girls were asked to make certain changes to their behavior (which would include superficial things like makeup, or hair, etc) to better represent and sell the sorority; and the girls didn't want to and left.


This, some people would find alarming. But if the sorority isn't selling what the majority of freshmen girls want to buy, the colony will continue to dwindle in numbers and die.

This is the cold hard truth.

Originally Posted by GDIfly

They weren't colonizing; they were dwindling. There is a huge difference between choosing founding members based on their ability to recruit a strong alpha class and kicking out initiated sisters because they aren't recruiting the prettiest, thinnest, whitest, and/or sluttiest girls.

[33girl]

archangel:

This wasn't a colony. This was DZ's second oldest chapter. And the "individualistic" outlook of the chapter was nothing new.

Did you see the pictures of the girls? They were hardly ugly or ungroomed. They just weren't Paris Hilton clones. And they were smart enough to question what was being asked of them and whether it really was true to the values of DZ as it was founded.

Not to mention that the women of the chapter were all active on campus - they were hardly the social retards people painted them as.

[archangel689]

Second oldest, ouch.

So, they weren't having trouble with recruitment?


I don't know then. I can only offer input from my perpective, the DZs I know, and how my campus operates. From my perspective, even old fraternities, when tiny, are much like colonies, except with a very large alumni base that is "helping" them. Usually really old chapters get alot of attention (I guess like what we see here).

Nationals are somewhat fanatical about their oldest chapters... we've been trying to get our "other" Alpha back for years. They can be really ridiculous about our bigger chapters. So, I guess its possible that someone would just be that crazy and boot these girls because they weren't the exact image of what they wanted.


I was simply offering an alternative possibility...

Originally Posted by 33girl

archangel:

This wasn't a colony. This was DZ's second oldest chapter. And the "individualistic" outlook of the chapter was nothing new.

Did you see the pictures of the girls? They were hardly ugly or ungroomed. They just weren't Paris Hilton clones. And they were smart enough to question what was being asked of them and whether it really was true to the values of DZ as it was founded.

Not to mention that the women of the chapter were all active on campus - they were hardly the social retards people painted them as.

[ΑΓΔSquirrelGirl]

Originally Posted by archangel689

I don't agree with that statement. A dwindling and weak group below healthy numbers faces a lot of the same challenges a colony does... reputation being one of them. In fact, on some campuses, including mine--once a chapter drops so far in numbers it loses chapter status and, is, in affect, technically a colony, such as in this case.

I am under the impression from the CNN news report that the girls were asked to make certain changes to their behavior (which would include superficial things like makeup, or hair, etc) to better represent and sell the sorority; and the girls didn't want to and left.


This, some people would find alarming. But if the sorority isn't selling what the majority of freshmen girls want to buy, the colony will continue to dwindle in numbers and die.

This is the cold hard truth.

Those girls didn't look like they had a grooming problem or that they didn't know how to put on make up. In the picture they all look clean, well groomed, made up...just not barbies. I get the impression it might have been more along the lines of changing their body types and clothing styles. Which involves genetics and something that can be very important to a person's identity.

[archangel689]

Originally Posted by ΑΓΔSquirrelGirl

Those girls didn't look like they had a grooming problem or that they didn't know how to put on make up. In the picture they all look clean, well groomed, made up...just not barbies. I get the impression it might have been more along the lines of changing their body types and clothing styles. Which involves genetics and something that can be very important to a person's identity.

Then someone is a sicko.

[backuppath]

I actually posted this on another board. But here is my opinion as a fellow greek at DePauw.

I actually graduated from DePauw University in 2006. I was not a Delta Zeta there, but I was a Rho Gamma (recruitment guide) my senior year. I am absolutely disgusted by the way nationals handled this situation. I think it is difficult for any chapter at DePauw because the school is very small and stereotypically charged. It seems that a lot of pressure is put on appearance at DePauw. It is rare to see someone wearing sweatpants to class (unless it was a heavy drinking night the night before). The campus is inondated with pearls, designer labels and greek letters. Girls tend to be very up to date with fashion, and it is well known that DePauw kids have a "work hard play hard" attitude. About 80% of the campus is greek and your greek status defines who you are around campus. it is often overheard "do you know so and so? she was an alpha alpah." usually a statement like that is enough to pass judgment.
By no means am i condoning the behavior of students at depauw, because as i am now removed from the campus and lifestyle i actually realize how shallow and immature greek life was at times. Yes, of course i had great memories, lasting friendships, and out chapter did a lot for the community. I still support greek life and depauw university, but it was often taken to the extreme because of the size and emphasis on popularity/appearances.
My first year recruitment was a blur, but i remember going to the DZ house. before we even walked in many of the girls were saying things like "what a waste of time," "do we really have to go in?" "i really want to skip this house and go on to the others," "there's no reason to be here." The one thing i do remember about DZ was the fact that the girls who talked to me didn't even go to DePauw. Clearly, we didn't have much to talk about if you couldn't talk about campus, classes, involvement, etc. I just remember thinking how odd it was. I thought it actually made the house look worse because they had to bring in girls from other schools. Even though rush is fake in itself, this was the more disturbing display of falsity we saw through the whole process in my opinion. Although i do hate to admit this, when i cut Delta Zeta during recruitment i did cut them based on their stereotype. But i also wonder if i would have felt differently if i had actually met the women who lived in the house. maybe meeting the actual DZs, they would have erased the stereotypes i already had in my head. I can't help but think so.
the one thing i have to say about the women of DZ at DePauw is that they are such a strong bunch of girls and they have my support behind their decisions to deactivate.
I think that the nationals made a terrible mistake in overlooking the charm these women had. I think that DePauw needs more greek women like the Dela Zetas.

[jon1856]

Something else from MSN ( and others covered it as well ):
University cuts ties with sorority
Group’s mass eviction of some members pointed to image discrimination
The Associated Press
Updated: 1:01 p.m. ET March 13, 2007

GREENCASTLE, Ind. - DePauw University’s president on Monday ordered a sorority off campus by fall after Delta Zeta kicked out nearly two dozen members and drew accusations that only attractive, popular students were asked to remain.
School President Robert G. Bottoms said the values of the sorority did not fit with the 2,200-student private college in western Indiana.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17581312/

[ΑΓΔSquirrelGirl]

I know sometimes being in a sorority does require one to give up small individual freedoms for the greater good...but I've never understood ANY rationalization of the attempt to change who a woman is for the sorority. Maybe because my campus is more liberal...here we ALL stress, repeatedly, that we won't change you, except for the better...and that's something you have control of. And it's true...I don't think any of the five NPC groups here change their women to fit a stereotype.

I read what the president had to say. Part of the problem, I think (though I've never been to DePauw, just read about it) is the campus culture in regards to the Greek system, as well as the DZ officials' desperation to keep the chapter, instead of risking its loss for the greater good. For instance,

"I didn't feel like I had to change who I was. I feel like they accepted me for who I am. They helped me grow. I probably wouldn't have even thought of being chapter president except for a couple girls in the house said, "I think you'd be great for it.""

THAT is what should be important. Not numbers, quotas, clothes, brands, fakeness, plastic....what she is describing is what sisterhood is about. If you join for sisterhood you joined to have a family away from home...and family accepts you for who you are, and loves you for it.

"I wasn't a big fan of chanting for recruitment or dressing up for weekly meetings. But I didn't mind singing before formal dinners because it's a ritual, and I've never been part of an organization that had rituals. Doing some of the things our founders did and honoring that was kind of cool."

Every chapter's requirements for chapter, or their attitude towards it, is different. Here, most of the sororities don't require every chapter to be badge dressed. That's because not all women are in love with high heels and uncomfortable dresses. What she did enjoy, though, was ritual. Ritual is far, far, FAR more important than the stupid songs we all sing during rush. It's what and who we are.

I see a woman who had a real sisterhood, based on family bonds. She honestly admits to not dressing up...but that doesn't mean she didn't when told to. She doesn't like the chants...it doesn't mean she didn't do them. Personally, I hate them. I'm not outgoing. But I put a smile on my face and chant like I'm on speed like every other sorority woman on campus, and keep that perm-a-smile on until the last PNM leaves. I prepare questions before they come in, and I fill awkward pauses if they're shy. Do I like it? No. Probably most of the PNMs don't either. I want them to feel as comfortable as possible, because its not their faults that they've been thrown into a room of loudly chanting women in matching outfits. If someone asked me what I didn't like about the process, that would be part of it. Will I and do I do it anyway? Of course...and always to the best of my ability. She could very well be the same.