Obey? Submit? What do you think??

[Eclipse]

AKAtude posed something interesting on another thread so I decided to start a new one. Plus, Idea08 is rubbing off on me a bit (j/k luv ya girlie! ha ha) so I have a question for you guys to answer:

Most of us, whether Christian or not, are familiar with the phrase "wives submit to your husbands" from the Bible (Ephesians 5:23). Ladies (married, divorced, planning to, want to, ain't even got no prospect--heck guys can get in on this one too!), what do you think about this and the word "obey" in marriage vows? Did you say it? Will you say it? Men, expect your wife/future wife to do it? I'd love to hear your views!


FELT COMPELED TO ADD: I am looking for intelligent, well thought out conversation here. If you disagree with someone fine, just don't be disagreeable! Respect the other person's right to believe and think what they do! Not sure what they meant? ASK FIRST!! you know, like "Can you explain your statement XYZ to me? I'm not following you." Let's try not to call into question a person's character, morality, family background, etc. as we discuss. In other words...PLAY NICE!! LOL

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited April 19, 2001).]

[VctoriasSecrt]

first and foremost i must preface my response by saying that in many instances the bible is WRONGLY interpreted...to fully understand the context of the verse in question you have to one take the entire chapter and maybe even the entire book in to consideration...place, time, context, culture, misinterpretation past and present, as well as the fact that the king james version at least is highly questionable in some areas...if i am ever married i will not say obey...not to disrespect my husband but a marriage in my opinion does not negate the equality of man and wo-man...therefore i expect him to treat me the way that i treat him...obey implies that there is a lesser equal of the two...man and wo-man are fully equal on all levels...

[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 19, 2001).]

[Rain Man]

I am currently in a courtship with a young lady (who is a Gamma Sig), and she says that the word "obey" must be taken out of the vows. We are currently in disagreement on that. Men are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. Conversely, the wife must obey the husband as the Church must obey Christ. In other words, the present day marriage is symbolic of the ultimate union of Christ to the Church (soon to come).

The man is to be the head of the household, and the woman is to submit to the head. Or, as my pastor put it, The husband is the head, the wife is the neck that turns the head. OTOH, being that husbands are the head of the household, we are to serve our wives and to be humble in all our endeavors.

As far as our courtship goes, I doubt that it will go any further until this matter is resolved. Not compromised, mind you, but resolved. I don't want ego, hers or mine to destroy the marriage before it starts.

Match Game '73

[AKAtude]

Eclipse, you already know how I feel. So, I'm just going to keep my trap shut. Y'all know what I mean.

[Rain Man]

Originally posted by VctoriasSecrt:
first and foremost i must preface my response by saying that in many instances the bible is WRONGLY interpreted...to fully understand the context of the verse in question you have to one take the entire chapter and maybe even the entire book in to consideration...place, time, context, culture, misinterpretation past and present, as well as the fact that the king james version at least is highly questionable in some areas...if i am ever married i will not say obey...not to disrespect my husband but a marriage in my opinion does not negate the equality of man and wo-man...therefore i expect him to treat me the way that i treat him...obey implies that there is a lesser equal of the two...man and wo-man are fully equal on all levels...

[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 19, 2001).]

A few things:

Are you saying that the Bible is outdated in the 21st century? If not, then if you say that the Scriptures in question are wrongly interpreted, what is the correct interpretation of Ephesians 5:23?

If obey implies there is a lesser equal of the two, (1) then why would God create Eve for Adam, with the intent of giving Adam a help-meet, and (2) why would we have Ephesians 5:23 as a Scripture in the first place? It would sound to me as if God deliberately created Eve as a lesser being from the word GO! (which of course is not true). If we were to be perfectly honest with ourselves, in this shallow materialistic 21st century American society, because of sin, neither men nor women, by and large, want to obey/be submissive to anybody/any being. That is why I think a lot of people take issue with the word "obey".

[AKAtude]

**AKAtude is biting her tongue...really hard. Her fingers are wiggling over the keyboard.**

[toocute]

Originally posted by AKAtude:
**AKAtude is biting her tongue...really hard. Her fingers are wiggling over the keyboard.**

I am too. I'll wait to see a few more posts before I put in my two cents (that's what I usually do)

[1 Woman of Virtue]

Originally posted by AKAtude:
Eclipse, you already know how I feel. So, I'm just going to keep my trap shut. Y'all know what I mean.

I feel you, and I can hardly keep my opinion to myself...so i won't!

I don't think Victoria's Secret is saying the Bible is outdated for any century. Simply that when you look at the linguistic honesty in many translations, and MOST ESPECIALLY THE KING JAMES VERSION (which is believed by many Bible scholars to have the MOST mal-interpretations), what you read, is not what was said. And that in reading a verse, it is important to understand to the best of one's ability, what was going on at that time. For example, if a letter was written to a disobedient group of people, like the Corinthian's, we need to understand that Book of the Bible as a book of correction to some who had gotten out of hand. Or, where in Peter it says that a woman should not wear braided hair, but humility (or something like that), is Peter really saying you can't wear extensions or weave? Or is he trying to correct a problem of the sin of pride?
It is the context that is very important. Rainman, if it's that big of an issue for you, then I commend you on the fact that you will not compromise. But as far as I'm concerned, I don't believe that marriage relegates me to the position of being un-equal to my husband (to be that is!). So no, I will not use the word "obey" in my ceremony. I have one father on earth, and one in Heaven.

By the way, correct me (nicely, that is) if I'm wrong, but there isn't one passage of the Bible that is called "marriage ceremony" is there? Is there a scripture that says the wife says: "I will love, honor, and obey my husband"? Cuz if not, than it would seem to me that this is just another "tradition" that doesn't have real merit.

BTW, Vic's Secret, if that's not what you meant, didn't mean to stick my opinion in your mouth!

[This message has been edited by 1 Woman of Virtue (edited April 19, 2001).]

[ManndingoNUPE]

As long as she promises to do what DL Hugley's wife wouldn't do in "The Brothers" we are ok. She don't have to obey, just hit a brother off, and I will do likewise.

Now Rainman, you know better than to come up into a woman's chat room talking that stuff. It's called quiet diplomacy. You can be the head of the household, and it will be known without the woman having to say that she will obey. There are a lot of things that are said in the bible, that we will not adhere to. To me, people tend to pick and choose what aspect of the bible they want to obey, and then throw the rest out.

There are a lot of things in the bible that if we followed it strickly to the wording, all of us would be in trouble. I know I would.

Peace

MN

[Rain Man]

I am really enjoying this discussion. I would like to say for the record, that men/husbands do not have it easy just because of the wife submitting to the husband. The men have their work cut out for them and they do have to step up to the plate when it comes to being the head of the household.

Do I believe in a balance between husband and wife? YES, I DO!!! The husband supplies the food, the wife supplies the meal. The husband supplies a house, the wife supplies a home. The husband supplies the seed, the wife supplies the child. Etcetera and so on.

Further, I feel another point is being missed on this whole submit/obey debate. When you really love your husband, and really want to put your all into the relationship, your submission won't come because you feel morally obligated to do so, it will come naturally. It won't feel like submission. Because the husband is putting his all to please you and to keep you feeling secure, you will naturally want to please him, and to keep him encouraged in his endeavors. I think that by wives being submissive to their husbands does not mean you will let your husbands be tyrants and dictators and walk all over you like a rug. NO! What it means is that while you may not always agree with him in his decisions that affect the family, you RESPECT his decisions because he is the head of the household and ultimately responsible for the acheivements and setbacks of the family as a family. In a nutshell, I am divorced for that very reason; my ex could not respect a major decision I had to execute as head of the family (and was a very tough decision to come to). She got upset, refused to talk to me, and ended the marriage, not knowing that afterwards, my personal life picked up immediately afterwards, and she could have been a part of that.

Now that I think about it, the reason why the word "obey" has an inferior ring to it, is because of the present day stigma attached to it. It implies, "I am the head, you are the tail", when in a marriage, it should imply, "I am the head, you are the neck that turns the head".

Hope this helps.

Match Game '73

[1 Woman of Virtue]

To anyone who knows,

Like I said, I'm not a Bible scholar, so if you know, could you please tell me where the "I will obey my husband" vow is found in the Bible? No, I'm not being sarcastic, but I really would like to know. Thanks!

[SWEETAKA]

I had to reply to this since I am married. I married later in life so was quite independent and confident about taking care of myself and my business without the help of a man--but LOVE got me(LOL). Anyway, I am very opinionated and consider myself a moderate feminist. I have read many books by feminist mainly those of bell hooks. I am a Christian--baptist to be exact. I was counseled as was my husband about a wife submitting to her husband when there is a disagreement about an issue the family faces. I have a big problem with this concept since I am a woman that has a degree and works each day. In other words, I do have a brain and it works just as well as a man's when it comes to making decisions. I think that my husband and I share equally in the submission concept. I think there should be a balance of power in a marriage. My husband and I share that power and it works just fine. When he is wrong, I tell him and vice-versa. However, if he is wrong and we argue and if I think I am right--I will hold the line until the end.(I usually win--LOL) I think the fact that I work makes the concept obsolete, because the Bible also says somewhere around that submission verse that a man should take care of his family. I choose to have a career. Now, if I were a housewife being taken care of by my man--then maybe we can talk about the submission issue on a more level playing field. However, since I am a woman with a career and pay bills (too) then we are an equal partnership in this submission business.

[AKA2D '91]

Okay, if the preacher man won't take the word "obey" out of the ceremony, why not make up your OWN vows to EACH OTHER...

that will eliminate alot of confusion...

that's what I plan to do (IF and WHEN I get married), now, if only I will be able to remember them (you know from partying and all the night b4 )

I am speaking generally, of course

[tickledpink]

I think that the verse has been misrepresented by men for too long. I only wish they would spend half as much time focusing on Ephesians 5:25, which says:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her...

Stop right there. Christ was willing to give up His very life. That's how deep his love was.

verse 28 states:

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church...


So, taking into consideration this directive, what woman would not want to submit to a man that loves her so much that he would die for her, because she would know that anything that he asked her to do would only be in her best interest.

So, yes, He meant to submit, knowing that your husband would never knowingly do anything to steer you wrong or hurt you. So, I kept the word obey in there - because he also has a promise to keep.

And that's my 19.08 cents worth.



[This message has been edited by tickledpink (edited April 19, 2001).]

[Shalom2U]

Originally posted by 1 Woman of Virtue:
To anyone who knows,
Like I said, I'm not a Bible scholar, so if you know, could you please tell me where the "I will obey my husband" vow is found in the Bible? No, I'm not being sarcastic, but I really would like to know. Thanks!

Shalom Everybody~

The word "obey" is used 69 times in scripture. Forty-one (41) of those times it comes from the Hebrew word "shama" meaning: to hear intelligently/with attention. Thirteen (13) of those times it comes from the Greek word "hupakouo" which means: to hear under (subordinate) i.e. to listen attentively.

Now in reference to marriage, the word "obey" is not used---the word "obedience" is used and it comes from the Greek word "hupotasso" which translate: to obey, to be under obedience, submit self unto. Scriptures where it is used and we sistahs are instructed to be in "obedience" are found in: 1 Peter 3:1 / 3:5 and
Titus 2:5.

I wanted to wait for more postings too, but I will say this, yes, I had, heck, I still do have trouble with "obey/obedience" and yes, it is something I'm working out and working on DAILY with my stubborn self, but I will admit this to my GreekChat family, in my studying GOD'S Word, I've noticed that whenever GOD used the word obey/obedience and the people followed through, it always had AWESOME results and blessings....HMMMM.

SWEETAKA, I ditto you and Tickledpink, you can get a AMEN from me.

Shalom~